Arrggh. You'll love this hand. [no real content]

[RiverBear]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

NOTE: The hand before this, UTG+1 raised 8BBs over a limper with 47o.

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB (t4055)
BB (t1535)
UTG (t1700)
<font color="#C00000">UTG+1 (t1390)</font>
MP1 (t4260)
MP2 (t935)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t1090)</font>
CO (t2675)
Button (t4165)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls t170, UTG+1 calls t170.

Flop: (t645) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t900, Hero calls all-in</font>, UTG folds.

Turn: (t1545) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t1545) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t1545

Results:
UTG+1 has 5c 7c (flush, ten high).
Hero has Kh Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins t1545.

[2005]

*sigh*... at least you were kind enough to tell us there wasn't much content. Bad beat posts are even more useless than "Folding AA preflop" posts. This wasn't even a bad beat and definitely not terribly played by UTG+1.

Gavin

[LotsOfOuts69]

yeah, its not poorly played by UTG+1, cause i call raises for 1/5th of my stack out of position with 75 suited too and then push my draw into the raiser and then pray he doesnt have a pair which he obviously does.

--LoO

[iMsoLucky0]

Poorly does not equal Terribly /images/graemlins/grin.gif

It wasn't "terribly" played, but it was "poorly" played.

But I agree, this post is absolutely useless.

[Chief911]

Interestingly enough, I dont mind what UTG+1 did here. Those small/medium suited connectors or gappers (Which I like more than connectors actually) have some great implied odds if you have the chips to gamble. Not sure I'd push on this flop, as I'd probably want my draw to develop.

Sorry, but this is NOT a horrible bad beat. Outdraw, yes.

He got some good implied odds though didnt he?

Nick

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
He got some good implied odds though didnt he?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to figure out if you are being facetious here.

[DVC Calif]

Your opponent made a terrible call PF and clearly has a lot to learn about the game of poker. You played it right but unfortuanetly he drew out on you.

You should actually be happy that people play this way. If you were to run this same hand a number of times, you'd win in the long run.

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=821496
pokenum -h kh kd - 5c 7c -- 2c tc 6s
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6s Tc 2c
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Kh 601 60.71 389 39.29 0 0.00 0.607
7c 5c 389 39.29 601 60.71 0 0.00 0.393

[Chief911]

Ok, while this is probably a semi-poor example of what I'm going to say, I'm very surprised by the way many people are dismissing the defense of UTG+1.

Lets take a look preflop. He limps in UTG. That's a fine play IMHO, with a small suited 1-gapper. Gets raised to 200 (About 1/7th his stack). While I think this is stretching the viability of this move, I would easily call a raise to 100, and even possibly 150 with this hand.

Why?

There is a lot of beauty in low suited connectors. Because they give great returns when you hit, against an aggressor. Again, in this case our villian had a flush draw. If he is called by even one of you, he's getting close to proper odds to chase his flush draw.

Now, here's the main reason I love this type of hand. You either hit or you dont. Its a fairly easy hand to get away from (Barring having to call allin, or in this case going allin postflop). And when it does hit, it usually gets paid off very handsomely. Do you understand why?

Again, this is not a great example, because our hero did make a marginal call preflop of the raise (But I would NOT call it a bad play), and then instead of waiting to hit his draw, he aggressively pushed.

As I was reading this, I remembered that Brunson's SS I had noticed a segment on small suited connectors. I had not read it yet (Just started the book). Here's what he had to say:

Quoting from supersystem:

P. 596

Small connecting cards

Before the flop. This is the hand I'm looking for when I play no-limit hold'em: small, suited connecting cards such as 7c 6c, 8h 7h and 5d 4d. That's the kind of hand I want. Its my favorite. And when I get it, I want my opponent to have two aces, or two kings, and to believe that he should play them slow. If he does, he'll give me the opportunity to get a flop. And if I do, I can break him.
Exactly such a situation occurred in the 1977 world series of poker. It was definately the most important and memorable pot of the tournament, bigger and more important than the pot I played with Bones, which I mentioned earlier. Not only did I win it, but I eliminated two very tough opponents. Here's what happened:

At this stage of the tournament, the ante was 200 and there were blinds of 300/600. Junior whited had the big blind for 600. Buck buchanan limped in for the six hundred..Bones was next, and he made it 3500 to go. I called, and so did Milo Jacobon. When it got back to Junior, he went all-in for 11,300. Buck was now looking at two raises......He called, as did Bones, and so did I. Milo passed......The flop was 5c7d7h...."

I'm tired of semi-quoting, but Buck moved allin on the flop, which Doyle gladly called with his 67s. Buck had KK, Junior had KQs. And Doyle took down a 125k pot.

Again, I want to stress that I think calling the raise to 200 was probably incorrect because of the small overall stack size, but that's what we play with in internet poker.

Nick

[Punker]

Your preflop raise to 200 doesn't leave much in the way of poker available after the flop. Something like 150 seems more reasonable, and gives you some options postflop.

UTG+1's preflop call is a bit janky, but not outside the realm of playability; 170 into a pot of 575. His flop jam is risky, but seems like a fair enough semibluff.

[Shorty35]

Im with you Nick. Ugly execution of an otherwise sound strategy. Let's hope UTG+1 doesnt get any coaching; he could be dangerous.

Last week, I played an almost identical hand in the first 20 mins of a MTT with KK (although there, I bet and he made a "bad" call to catch). I chastised him gently, and he responded with this -- "you are a good player, you are someone who needs to get caught; and I got lucky with the right situation". I then went on to tell him how he watches too much Gus Hansen, etc. He then finally fessed up and gave me his actual name (very similar to his screen name), and suggested I google it. Turns out he finished 36th at the WSOP last year. So much for my lecture.

[lastchance]

The problem is, raising to 1/7 of your stack essentially means you have to hit the flop. There are very little implied odds and KK is certainly not going to let you see a turn or a river. With a deeper stack, I like/love this call, but you've got to have enough of a stack to see the turn and river so you can extract value.

[RiverBear]

Thanks, guys. I definitely didn't mean to post it as a bad beat story. Postflop, at least, it certainly wasn't a bad beat. But I was curious about the call. The "you'll love this hand" was meant because it was the kind of thing I hadn't seen before and wanted some feedback.

I'm definitely going to do some more study on small suited connectors. I've recently started including them more and more into my repertoire of stealing hands late in a tourney--I didn't realize they can be like 40% against AKo, for example...

Add in folding equity and that often makes for pretty well +EV play.

Thanks for the comments, guys. Definitely food for thought.

T

[curtains]

I think it's a terrible call preflop by UTG+1. The stack sizes aren't nearly deep enough to justify this.

[woodguy]

While its true that the stacks are not really deep enough to make the call, no one has mentioned the most important reasons for the call.

1) UTG calls before him, giving him a pot 430 and a call of 170 so he's getting 2.5-1 on the call

2) He's closing the PF action with the call of the rasie, he knows exactly the price he is paying to see the flop without fear of more action behind him.

Is it a good move? No.
But not nearly as bad as everyone is making it out to be.

Remember Harrington's warning not to make more mistakes as a hand progresses to try to "make up" for an earlier mistake.

Open limp is "ok"
Calling for 2.5-1 is "ok", but not good given stack size.
Move on flop is good.

Regards,
Woodguy

[curtains]

I'll be honest that I didn't see UTG called too. I still don't like limping here preflop out of position, and I still don't like calling the raise.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't like limping here preflop out of position, and I still don't like calling the raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

They wouldn't be on my list of plays I like making either, but I thought they weren't horrible.

Regards,
Woodguy

[ddubois]

Your choice of phrasology "He got good implied odds, didn't he?" is what bothers me. He didn't make his hand, and then get paid off for the rest of Hero's stack, rather, he merely hit a draw. So he put in 1/7th of his stack as a 1:4 dog, and then when he "improved" to a 2:3 dog he put in the rest of his stack. That's a fairly gross misuse of the term implied odds.

[Chief911]

I know. As I said repeatedly, this isn't a great example. Not really implied odds, because he still got em in as a significant underdog. /shrug.

Nick

[kuro]

Some of you questioning utg+1's play here are forgetting that utg+1 can't magically know that hero has KK. The range of hands that hero could raise with are actually much wider than that and given the pot odds and implied odds if you hit then the call just isn't bad.