Post-flop play... where the real money is lost. KJ

[SomethingClever]

Here's a hand I played today that felt like spewing. I'm beginning to question whether I could outplay Ralph Wiggum after the flop at this point.

I was involved in two hands with villain recently. Hand 1, I got a free play from the BB with K7o. Flop was J7x, and I bet out. Villain raised, I called. Turned a K, I checkraised and he paid off with AJo. Which he had limped with, BTW.

Next hand with villain was a multiway pot that I had to dump on the river (flush draw). So he'd seen me fold.

Third hand, and the one in question. I get KJ in MP and raise. Villain 3-bets from the button. He's about 73/13 statswise.

I call, flop comes low rags... 2, 3, 6 or something. I check, he bets, I checkraise. He 3-bets and I call.

Turn: J. I check, he bets, I checkraise. He 3-bets and I call.

River: A. I check, he checks behind.

Thoughts?

[B00T]

I'm assuming if he bet the river you are folding right?

Besides that, I might dump the hand on the 3 bet on the flop.

[turnipmonster]

you are going to fold to a flop 3 bet getting 12:1 when your overcards could very well be good?

[turnipmonster]

I don't like your flop play really, he probably either has big cards or a medium to big pocket pair, and he's not going to fold and you are out of position.

you can't fold to a turn bet getting 11:1 but you can probably lay down on the river, although vs. these very loose guys I often pay off.

given the action QQ seems the most likely hand, no?

--turnipmonster

[Grisgra]

Yeah, I'm not sure of the value of the flop checkraise either. I doubt he's laying down AK, and obviously he's not laying down a pocket. I would have check/called the flop, check/folded the turn if I missed. As you did it, the checkraise is fine, but hell, when three-bet . . . ugh. Doubtful you're good here, I think it's time to lay it down unless you've got odds to see the river.

If he had bet the river I would have folded.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
given the action QQ seems the most likely hand, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

nh, that's what he had.

I dunno... I thought given that he'd seen me checkraise a monster before, checkraising the flop and leading the turn might have some merit. Plus, I figured he was 3-betting lighter than most because 1) he's really loose and aggressive and 2) I took a big pot off him earlier and he might want to "get me back."

When I hit the turn, I thought why not go for another checkraise...

I think all this overthinking shite is messing with my postflop play.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
If he had bet the river I would have folded.


[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. Definitely.

[turnipmonster]

not to sound harsh, but all this thinking amounts to is putting 3 bets in with king high on the flop. the way you beat these loose guys is make a good pair and value bet the hell out of it. I think you will save yourself some money if you assume that a preflop 3 bettor will pretty much never fold, and you probably need a pair to win a showdown.

--turnipmonster

[B00T]

[ QUOTE ]
you are going to fold to a flop 3 bet getting 12:1 when your overcards could very well be good?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not of check raised this flop and said I might fold. I'd want to fold but I know if I was playing the hand out, of course I'd call.

If I am MP and button 3 bets I am weary. I cant see many marignal hands staying in here or even trying to knock out the blinds with the either yet to act. I dont see any hands that are 3bet there preflop that the poster beats. <Maybe QJs> but thats probably it. I dont think he has QJ 1 in 12 times right there. Folding is horrible but even C/R the turn is awful when the Jack comes if you are not going to fold to a 3-bet. I would lead the turn and gain more info there.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
not to sound harsh, but all this thinking amounts to is putting 3 bets in with king high on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No worries. I agree I am a fxxxing moron. I want to punch myself in the face when I make plays like this.

[helpmeout]

I agree, you gotta stop overplaying those trash hands.

KJo sucks if you miss the flop and someone plays back at you.

Just dump it and wait until you hit.