A simple situation I hate being in

[jason_t]

This is a situation I hate being in. Villian is an unknown.

This is from PokerRoom 2/4, 10 handed.

I limp UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. It's folded to MP3 who raises. The blinds fold. It's HU.

Flop: (5.5 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif
I check, <font color="red">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="red">I raise</font>, <font color="red">MP3 3-bets</font>, I call.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
I check, <font color="red">MP3 bets</font>, I call.

River: (7.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
I check, <font color="red">MP3 bets</font>, I fold.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

What do you differently? Why?

Would you fold on the turn if a backdoor flush draw doesn't start running?

[DeathDonkey]

This seems like a pretty good spot to check/call, check/call, bet, and change your mind if an ace hits.

-DeathDonkey

[Garbonzo]

I think, and it very well may be wrong, but when he 3 bets the flop you should fold the turn, or call to the river. Rumor has it, you shouldn't call the turn unless you plan on calling the river.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I think, and it very well may be wrong, but when he 3 bets the flop you should fold the turn, or call to the river. Rumor has it, you shouldn't call the turn unless you plan on calling the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I picked up a flush draw. Does that change anything?

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think, and it very well may be wrong, but when he 3 bets the flop you should fold the turn, or call to the river. Rumor has it, you shouldn't call the turn unless you plan on calling the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I picked up a flush draw. Does that change anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but the river is still close. BTW do you think the hand would have been easier to play if you had raised PF and villain three bet?

[cold_cash]

I agree with the jackass.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like a pretty good spot to check/call, check/call, bet, and change your mind if an ace hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I've never really understood this line. Can you elaborate?

[cold_cash]

If he's got you crushed with an overpair you lose the least.

If you've now got him reverse dominated you keep him betting and then deny him a free showdown.

There was a post in the micro forum a few days ago that talked about this line in detail. I can't remember the name of it, but this is a good spot to use it.

Maybe someone can post a link.

[Garbonzo]

Probably. Howeverr, once you call the turn, I think you should call the river nonetheless, I think you need to be damn sure he has an overpair to fold your TPTK on the river.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like a pretty good spot to check/call, check/call, bet, and change your mind if an ace hits.


[/ QUOTE ]

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's got you crushed with an overpair you lose the least.

If you've now got him reverse dominated you keep him betting and deny him a free showdown.

There was a post in the micro forum a few days ago that talked about this line in detail. I can't remember the name of it, but this is a good spot to use it.

Maybe someone can post a link.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. This is what I was thinking. How do you handle a river raise?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably. Howeverr, once you call the turn, I think you should call the river nonetheless, I think you need to be damn sure he has an overpair to fold your TPTK on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know he was unknown, but I don't think the average player is going to play unimproved overcards as he did. The 3-bet on the flop, the bet on the turn, and the bet on the river told me "overpair" or at best, "same hand." Is that off?

[cold_cash]

Usually you can pitch it. I think there are very few players who would raise you on the river after this line with a worse hand. In fact, even if he does have an over-pair often times he will still just call.

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is that?

[einbert]

I'm not a huge fan of c/ring this flop. I like the way ahead/way behind line here.

I would probably have c/c the flop, c/c the turn and bet the river and folded to a raise, but the way you played it I would call the river. You haven't shown a ton of strength (to many players a flop cr hu oop means pretty much nothing) and I think you have the best hand more than 1/9 of the time.

[cold_cash]

Here's a link to the thread I was talking about. Entity has a couple good posts in there. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1874964&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1)

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
I agree with the jackass.



Who is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously?

(DeathDonkey)

[QTip]

so we're checking and calling until the river shows no overcard to our T, and then we bet?

I can't wait to try this and then post a hand to have my misapplication revealed...

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Probably. Howeverr, once you call the turn, I think you should call the river nonetheless, I think you need to be damn sure he has an overpair to fold your TPTK on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know he was unknown, but I don't think the average player is going to play unimproved overcards as he did. The 3-bet on the flop, the bet on the turn, and the bet on the river told me "overpair." Is that off?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think you are right, but % chance he has of playing missed overs this way vs. your bet in proportion to the pot is what matters. You do not have to be wrong very often in this spot to make the river fold wrong.

Additionally, I think there are some meta game considerations here. You do not want people to be able to push you off TPTK hands very easily, it bodes poorly for future hands. Then again, meta game in 2-4 might be like buying a new engine for a Yugo....

I THINK I would call the river, but I would appreciate hearing others responses to this as I believe a leak in my game is calling down too often when clearly beat.

[eleventy]

Is checkraising the turn a dumb move? Since the flush draw came? Not saying do that everytime, but you may have the best hand now and you can get there if you don't. You would have to call down the river in either case in my opinion.

[Guruman]

TPTK and a nut flush draw on the turn heads up is a bet from me.

If he re-raises I've got a better read on this unknown's hand, but if he just calls the turn bet and my flush doesn't fall on the river I can probably check for a free showdown with my pair o tens.

Even with your turn play I'm calling the river. Only big PPs or two pairs are likely to beat you here. If unkown was fishy with Ax trying to push you off, calling could pay off here.

[Shillx]

Is checkraising the turn a dumb move?

Yes. When you make a play like this, you have to think about what better hands will do and what worse hands will do.

In this case, no one will fold a better hand like aces or kings. The only hands we that are going to fold are ones that we have drawing to just 1-2 outs. A case can be made for it if he will CALL you with a worse hand, but a play like this usually backfires because you get punished by better hands and you let hands that you have in the noose slip away.

Brad

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
Is checkraising the turn a dumb move? Since the flush draw came? Not saying do that everytime, but you may have the best hand now and you can get there if you don't. You would have to call down the river in either case in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't fold to a three-bet, and if you bet you definitely can't fold to a raise. Check/call is the only possible turn play.

[rmarotti]

Barring an obvious improvement of your hand, you muck. The idea being that he either has to be a total donk or really have you beat to raise the river here. The latter is way more likely.

[car ramrod]

I raise this pf.

[car ramrod]

I agree, I read a post the other day that was talking about this exact thing. This seems like a perfect spot to try the check call, check call, bet line.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise this pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't like this in early position.

[rmarotti]

From UTG? You probably shouldn't.

[Shillx]

You probably shouldn't

If by "you probably shouldn't" you really mean "you probably should", then yes I agree with you.

Raise ATs for value in any unraised pot except maybe if a known 10/3 type player limps in which case you should dump it. Against 9 other random players it is an easy value raise imo.

Brad

[car ramrod]

suited I usually raise it, sometimes I call. Don't you think if he 3 bets you pf then you can get a better read on what hands he holds. Usually people respect utg raises. If he 3 bets you, then maybe post flop play will be easier. What do you think?

[car ramrod]

lol
At least someone agrees with me.

[rmarotti]

Really? I've always mucked in a tight game and limped in a loose one from this position. Doesn't your lousy position negate a fair bit of the value of this hand? I'm ready to learn if I ought to be raising this from UTG, because I love to raise. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
Really? I've always mucked in a tight game and limped in a loose one from this position. Doesn't your lousy position negate a fair bit of the value of this hand? I'm ready to learn if I ought to be raising this from UTG, because I love to raise. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I raise this all the way down to KJs UTG in a full game.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
If by "you probably shouldn't" you really mean "you probably should", then yes I agree with you.

Raise ATs for value in any unraised pot except maybe if a known 10/3 type player limps in which case you should dump it. Against 9 other random players it is an easy value raise imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like it.

First, I'm out of position with a mediocre holding.

Second, I'm getting 3-bet by hands that have me in bad shape and I'm folding out the hands that I have in bad shape.

[Shillx]

I've always mucked in a tight game

Why? Goto PokerRoom and look at the stats for ATs UTG. It tells me that this hand is worth .28 BB/Hand. And this is what an average player turns with it. You should do a good deal better with this. Folding blows ass.

Brad

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding blows ass.


[/ QUOTE ]

Consider me convinced.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I've always mucked in a tight game

[/ QUOTE ]

You? This is unexpected, and horrible.

[car ramrod]

If you love to raise, I think this is a hand to raise for value. I know its a winning hand for me and probably for most.

[rmarotti]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif Maybe *always* was a bit strong. . . also when I say 'tight game' I mean the tightest end of of Ed's definition (no more than 3 to a flop) the sort of game I ought to leave but I'm too lazy to hunt up another table at the moment. Blind stealing from UTG doesn't appeal to me in that situation /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
First, I'm out of position with a mediocre holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

ATs is not a mediocre hand. It is a damn good hand and it should be raised for value. In my old 5/10 database I had ATs 127 times and I was making .42 BB/100 with it.

This is almost what the Poker Room page predicts the EV for AKo to be. So I'm guessing you don't raise AKo UTG for value either?

Brad

[car ramrod]

I don't think its a mediocre holding.
what about folding out AJo?
if you get 3 bet by a decent player, play for the flush, or check raise the flop if an A hits and see where hes at, maybe he has QQ or KK and will slow down.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
So I'm guessing you don't raise AKo UTG for value either?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I raise. But ATs is completely different than AK.

What about my second paragraph of comments?

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its a mediocre holding.
what about folding out AJo?
if you get 3 bet by a decent player, check raise the flop if an A hits

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't do this.

Click here for help (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=888296&amp;fpart= &amp;PHPSESSID=)

[car ramrod]

don't do what, I read the link, I'm lost?

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
Really? I've always mucked in a tight game and limped in a loose one from this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, this is bad. In a tight game, I'd raise ATs every single time! You have a good chance right off the bat to take the blinds (even UTG), and there's really a lot of value elsewise as others have said. In a loose game, I'm still raising it all the time. So much value, I love it.

[gaming_mouse]

Jason,

I think that river call is easy versus an unknown. I think alot of people would even say to bet the river, and some would even say call a raise. I prefer c/call or bet/fold to a raise. And against an unknown, where I really want to showdown, I lean toward c/call.

gm

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
don't do what, I read the link, I'm lost?

[/ QUOTE ]

The link is about playing a pair of aces with a weak kicker (ie your AT when an ace flops) OOP. Don't check raise the flop when you hit the ace is what I meant. The correct line (and the link explains why this is so) is to check/call, check/call, and either bet/fold or bet/call the river depending on your opponent.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]

Second, I'm getting 3-bet by hands that have me in bad shape and I'm getting cold called by the hands that I have in bad shape.


[/ QUOTE ]

As has been popular lately, I've fixed your post.

[QTip]

That's interesting because in SSHE, Ed (I believe)has this as a limp in a tight game and a raise in a loose game. Generally a limp in a tight game because you want to encourage multiway action. In a loose game, you're getting multiway whether you raise or not.

[Etric]

I would fold the turn if the /images/graemlins/club.gif didn't come, otherwise I would play this hand the same way w/o a read.

[car ramrod]

actually I have just been reading up on that line. Someone posted it the other day, I do like the line as it saves you the least amount when behind and wins you the most when ahead (for the most part thats what I got out of it).
But this line is not correct every time, is it?
What about when he has KK, or QQ, don't you think the pf raise, plus the check raise on the flop is going to slow him down with those hands.

[Fat Nicky]

I raise the pre-flop, since you didn't, i call the river bet.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
That's interesting because in SSHE, Ed (I believe)has this as a limp in a tight game and a raise in a loose game. Generally a limp in a tight game because you want to encourage multiway action. In a loose game, you're getting multiway whether you raise or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never gave that book much time. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

In a tight game, you're not getting multiway action ... it's tight.

I like to raise it all the time.

[KidPokerX]

depending on your read I may have showed him down.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

depending on your read I may have showed him down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian is an unknown.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

depending on your read I may have showed him down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian is an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'm showing down.

I would've raised PF, and if I got 3-bet, I'm check-calling flop, turn, and bet-folding river, unless I have an inkling that this guy might be insane.

That said, since you didn't raise PF, I'm actually more apt to see a showdown, so I'd check-call to the river, and probably bet-call it.

Rob

[spamuell]

This seems like a pretty good spot to check/call, check/call, bet

I really don't think so. (I would have raised pf but ignoring that.)

If the flop had been A62r then check-call, check-call, bet seems like a good line. On a board of T62r though, overcards are frequently going to check behind on the turn, you should bet it. And if you're going to bet the turn, you might as well check-raise the flop because you're probably ahead.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like a pretty good spot to check/call, check/call, bet

I really don't think so. (I would have raised pf but ignoring that.)

If the flop had been A62r then check-call, check-call, bet seems like a good line. On a board of T62r though, overcards are frequently going to check behind on the turn, you should bet it. And if you're going to bet the turn, you might as well check-raise the flop because you're probably ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm...so now there is disagreement. What is the best line in this hand? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

So after he 3-bets me on the flop, what do you think of the river fold?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
On a board of T62r though, overcards are frequently going to check behind on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I'd think overcards would be more likely to bet on a relatively ragged board like that.

That said, the turn getting checked through in a HU situation isn't a terrible thing. The pot is small (assuming you check-called the flop) and you're dealing with someone who has 6 outs at best if behind, but will more likely have 3 outs, and often even less.

I'd say that the turn getting checked through isn't as bad as getting raised when you bet the turn, given that you have to call.

Rob

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

I'd say that the turn getting checked through isn't as bad as getting raised when you bet the turn, given that you have to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. And while there is a chance that villain is making a free card play with overcards, there is a much greater chance that you are getting raised. The risk of losing the portion of his turn bet that you have equity in is not as bad as the risk of being raised, a scenario in which you are very likely throwing away almost 2 BB.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Jason,

I think that river call is easy versus an unknown. I think alot of people would even say to bet the river, and some would even say call a raise. I prefer c/call or bet/fold to a raise. And against an unknown, where I really want to showdown, I lean toward c/call.

gm

[/ QUOTE ]

What line would you have taken throughout? (Ignore preflop.)

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

What line would you have taken throughout? (Ignore preflop.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Same as you; I just would have called the river.

I think there is also merit to betting the river, but I really don't like calling a raise, and I want to see a showdown. I can't tell you how often I get paid off by unknowns in situations like this when I call down. The combined chance that he 3bet something like KT or is bluffing/semi-bluffing makes calling down easily correct, IMO.

gm

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Same as you; I just would have called the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you prefer this line? (Ignore river.)

[Guruman]

I'm still wrestling with the concept of checking this turn. Given that he raised pre-flop from MP3 and three bet a ragged, rainbow flop I'd easily put him either

a)overcards - which you beat,
b)xT - which you beat or split,
c)overpairs - which you have three outs to,
d)a set of tens - you're screwed, or even
e)a total desperation bluff on something like A2 (he is unknown)

I have a hard time putting him on two pair or a GSD like 78 since he raised pre-flop.

I think that since he's not likely to have two pair here that a turn bet is the easy line so that I can charge him for overcard and xT draws while gaining info about whether he has a set or overpairs.

where I am wrong here?

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

Why do you prefer this line? (Ignore river.)

[/ QUOTE ]

As opposed to what?

PF is raise, but we're ignoring that.

Flop is between c/r and bet -- I think arguments can be made for both.

Had the turn been blank, an argument for a c/fold right there could be made, but I still favor calling down for the reasons in my last post. This case is closer though.

Once the turn is called, the river is an easy call, for the same reasons that I like calling down (up against KT, another AT, or a bluff). But now your odds are twice as good. Note that you cannot argue, "I would have folded the turn if not for my flush draw, so since I missed, I should fold the river," because your effective odds have changed dramatically.

gm

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
As opposed to what?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people have been suggesting a check/call, check/call, bet/fold line.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

I think that since he's not likely to have two pair here that a turn bet is the easy line so that I can charge him for overcard and xT draws while gaining info about whether he has a set or overpairs.

where I am wrong here?

[/ QUOTE ]

It boils down to not being so worried about "charging" the overcards. I believe that you are more likely to be behind than ahead, but likely enough to be ahead that calling down is right. So the times you actually are ahead, and you give him a free card, you have cost yourself something like .88BB. When you are behind, you are going to cost yourself almost 2BB, or else fold to his raise, in which case you will sometimes cost yourself the pot (the times he's bluffing). So I think the possibility of losing a bet on the turn is the least of all possible evils.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

A lot of people have been suggesting a check/call, check/call, bet/fold line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, yeah. I said in one of my previous posts that I think there merit to that, that it may even be slighly more +EV, but I prefer to see a showdown against an unknown. That line is a little ballsier than mine. My line protects you against the truly out-of-line unknown. In the end, I think they're pretty close.

[Elizabeth]

I don't even want to read the other responses before chiming in here that folding the river is crazy. I might get confused by the groupthink.

His preflop raise came from MP3, which suggests it's a weak raise -- and it's 2/4.

His 3 bet of your checkraise, in the context of stealing, promises no more than a ten. And even that promise is suspect. It's a shorthanded pot, and you have top pair top kicker. I can't see you being beaten more than 90% of the time.

[Catt]

I am late to this thread, and I've read the whole thing so I may be influenced by the other responses.

I will raise this pre-flop in the vast majority of circumstances. ATs is a very strong hand and I'd like to fold out a number of hands that are good enough to limp behind a limp (or raise behind a limp) but not good enough to coldcall a raise.

If I had raised pre-flop and Villain had 3-bet, I'd take the check / check / bet line as this board developed. If I had raised pre-flop and Villain had cold-called, I would bet the flop, call a raise and then finish check / bet, or bet the flop, if called bet the turn, and bet the river -- if raised anywhere I would call down. If Villain folded the flop or turn to my bet I would not be unhappy.

As you played it, I'd probably call down after the flop 3-bet but would be thinking to myself that a better player would fold the river after my flush doesn't appear (but wouldn't be sure that a better player really would fold the river).

[gaming_mouse]

Jason,

THIS is why you call down here. This hand was versus an unknown, and I see this kind of thing frequently:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11.16 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.16 BB

UTG shows down A6o. MHIG.

[Mike Gallo]

I like the flop check raise you have to call the reraise.

You picked up the nut flush draw on the turn good check call.

On the river against most opponents you can fold, however against some you might have to call. Some players will make the same play with 77-99

I usually pay off the river a bit too much, however I would call here.

[jason_t]

Thanks. I guess I'll heed this advice for now against an unknown and take it from there.

[Hoi Polloi]

The key to understanding this line is that your marginal hand is either ahead or behind. This line is most profitable in the former case and least expensive in the latter case. Further, the river bet ensures that your opponent does not get a free showdown when he's behind while getting you to pay off when he's ahead.

The flop c/r lets your opponent get away when he's behind. When you're behind the c/r is chip spewing.