Stud software - does this already exist?

[CurryLover]

Is there any software available that will keep track of the cards that are out? I have just started playing stud8B and find that this is very difficult when you're also playing 3 tables of Hold'em at the same time.

If this software already exists, can someone give me a link? If it doesn't, does anyone fancy developing it?

I'm going to cross-post this on the software forum.

[BeerMoney]

I consider this to be cheating. The sites also consider this cheating as party poker will not run while programs like winhold 'em are running.

Good Luck cheating.

[CurryLover]

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I consider this to be cheating. The sites also consider this cheating as party poker will not run while programs like winhold 'em are running.

Good Luck cheating.

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That's a bit harsh...

I didn't even consider the cheating angle.

Now that I think about it I can see your point, since keeping track of cards is an integral part of the game. That said, it is an interesting question - is this really cheating?

Pokertracker/PlayerView is not cheating because it takes information that is freely available and simply makes it easier to reference. The software I was thinking about also takes information that is freely available and simply makes it easier to reference. Neither piece of software spies on hole cards or helps players collude or anything obviously unethical. So why should one be okay, and the other not?

I'm not saying it is not cheating - I simply don't know and am quite prepared to be persuaded either way. If the consensus was that it was cheating then I wouldn't use software like this even if it was available. Even if the consensus was that it was okay, I still might not use it if I personally decided that I thought it was dishonest. I am a ridiculously honest person - I have never knowingly cheated at anything and never will do. I simply had not even considered the fact that it might be considerd cheating.

[PoorLawyer]

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Pokertracker/PlayerView is not cheating because it takes information that is freely available and simply makes it easier to reference.

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I am not convinced of this statement and have had arguments about it before on the internet forum. The information is available yes, but not in any cohesive format that can give you instant information about the tendancies of players you have played against in past sessions. If someone were to try and do this by hand they wouldn't have any time to actually play. I won't go on because I have to go get some lunch.....

[BeerMoney]

My opinion is this.. If you have to ask the question, "is it cheating," then I think the answer is obvious.

I don't think PokerTracker is a fair comparison. It would be like comparing taking anabolic steroids to taking whey protein to get stronger.

I didn't want to call you a cheater, but I just want you to think about it.

It bothers me to think that I am not using this software and SOME of my opponents are. Getting a piece of software to help in this situation isn't much different than having a bot play for you. Its not the direction poker should be going.

And, as I said, this really isn't arguable, if the site doesn't allow it, then you shouldn't be using it. People shouldn't be taking it upon themselves to decide what's right and wrong in these situations.

BeerMoney.

[PoorLawyer]

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It bothers me to think that I am not using this software and SOME of my opponents are.

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I think it is even worse with pokertracker because most people dont even know that it exists. If i played more hold em I'd be bothered that people were using PT against me, but I could always get it myself if I was serious about playing....some fish who doesn't know it exists from this site or elsewhere doesnt have that option. I think either the sites should make PT info available to all like the stats they keep or not condone its use. If someone chooses not to use the stats on the site it is their own fault if they dont play as well as they could, but to have to go to an outside source on the internet and download a program in addition to the poker site software seems to lean towards teh cheating side to me

[kenberman]

I think Poker office does this, and does not violate the Party terms.

[beset7]

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I think it is even worse with pokertracker because most people dont even know that it exists. If i played more hold em I'd be bothered that people were using PT against me, but I could always get it myself if I was serious about playing....some fish who doesn't know it exists from this site or elsewhere doesnt have that option. I think either the sites should make PT info available to all like the stats they keep or not condone its use. If someone chooses not to use the stats on the site it is their own fault if they dont play as well as they could, but to have to go to an outside source on the internet and download a program in addition to the poker site software seems to lean towards teh cheating side to me

[/ QUOTE ]

My challenge with the whole datamining/pokertracker/dead card tracking debate is that it becomes like a nuclear arms race. I know for an absolute fact that almost all of the competetive hold em players on party, especially if multi-tabling, use PT. Unless you are autistic or something and can keep track of all those tens of thousands of screen names there is no way to compete without it.

I also play a lot of Omaha (pot-limit omaha and limit omaha8/b) and with Poker Tracker Omaha coming out last month, the games are already changing. Although with Omaha it's different because wildly variant styles of play often prove to be equally successful due to how close together in value the starting hands run (it's hard to quantify post-flop play), it's having an impact and I'm sure as people become more comfortable interpreting the data the games will get even tougher.

That's one of the reasons I started playing stud again a few weeks ago. I single-table it and pay close attention to what's happening. I can play at higher limits because I'm not multi-tabling and I don't really care if anyone is using stud i******** because I can keep track of the cards just as well as it can when single-tabling. Plus, any multi-tablers in the game are bound to be playing some level of auto-pilot which makes them vulnerable. Obviously this isn't as profitable as multi-tabling Omaha or Hold Em, but it's pure poker. Not some hyped up ritalin fest like playing 12 tables of hold em and omaha with PT and PTO and GT+ and playerview all running.

But as far as dead card tracking is concerned, i believe all the major sites don't allow it. So, it's against the rules which makes it cheating (cheating is defined as intentionally breaking the rules of a game). Datamining is not against the rules, so it's not cheating. But, the consequences of it are not so great in my opinion...

But, like it or not, that's the arms race. It won't slow down any time soon i'm sure.

[BeerMoney]

Nice post Beset.

[winchem21]

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But, like it or not, that's the arms race. It won't slow down any time soon i'm sure.

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sites could assign players random names each time they entered a game; that would effectively address this.

wc21

[Baulucky]

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But as far as dead card tracking is concerned, i believe all the major sites don't allow it.

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Don't you mean "card sharing" instead of "dead card tracking"?. Keeping track of dead cards in stud using your mind, a pad of papaer or a piece of software is part of what the game is.

[BeerMoney]

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But as far as dead card tracking is concerned, i believe all the major sites don't allow it.

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Don't you mean "card sharing" instead of "dead card tracking"?. Keeping track of dead cards in stud using your mind, a pad of papaer or a piece of software is part of what the game is.

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Are you allowed to write down the dead cards at a casino?

[Klak]

i dont see how using PT is that much different from using a program to track dead cards. both programs keep track of openly available information. id say player reads have at least as much relevence as dead cards.

[beset7]

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But as far as dead card tracking is concerned, i believe all the major sites don't allow it.

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Don't you mean "card sharing" instead of "dead card tracking"?. Keeping track of dead cards in stud using your mind, a pad of papaer or a piece of software is part of what the game is.

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No. I mean dead card tracking software. Most sites run software that scans for it and you will be banned from the site for using it just as if you were using Winholdem to play hold em for you. The sites that sell this software have to give you cracks to keep the sites from detecting that you are using dead card tracking software. So it's cheating.

[beset7]

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i dont see how using PT is that much different from using a program to track dead cards. both programs keep track of openly available information. id say player reads have at least as much relevence as dead cards.

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I can successfully multi-table hold em (at a low level, say 3/6) without PT at all... Just auto-pilot and on the spot reads. All PT does is increase what is already a profitable venture. Same for Omaha. I've been winning Pot-Limit Omaha games for 6 months without anything but my memory and the player notes function.

There is absolutely no way I could multi-table stud successfully without computer assistance in tracking dead cards. To me that is a major distinction.

[Klak]

what are you trying to say here? you COULD multitable omaha or HE without PT, but you dont. So, i could play stud without a card tracker, but its more profitable to use one so i do. whats the difference?

[BeerMoney]

Klak, perhaps you missed this from Beset's other post.

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6. Artificial Intelligence.
We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence (non-human) to play on our site. Such programs are often designed to send information about cards, dice or players to an external program. Information sent to an outside program is not permitted. The company will take measures to prevent and detect the use of such programs using methods including but not limited to screen scraping or reading the list of currently running programs on a player’s computer



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This leaves no information and answers the question whether or not such software is considered cheating. So, if you are using this, you are cheating, and are no different than someone who is colluding with another player.

[beset7]

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what are you trying to say here? you COULD multitable omaha or HE without PT, but you dont. So, i could play stud without a card tracker, but its more profitable to use one so i do. whats the difference?

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Not only can I multitable HE and omaha without PT but I do.

I don't believe anyone could four table stud successfully without a card tracker. I could be wrong. I was just responding to the idea that PT and card trackers are analogous. I think they are quite different. One, PT, can give a player a smallish edge, a dead card tracker makes what would otherwise be impossible possible.

This is all quite seperate from the fact that it's prohibited by most sites, therefore against the rules, therefore cheating, to use an artificial intelligence to help you play poker.

[Klak]

ok im a cheater. i admit it. happy?

[beset7]

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ok im a cheater. i admit it. happy?

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You say that like I give a hoot what you do.

Re-read my posts if you are confused. I'm totally ambivalent about whether you used dead tracking software and i know numerous people who post here use it. Get over yourself. All I care about is that my actions are OK with me and not against the rules. Like I said in my original post, it doesn't really concern me that people use this stuff because I have no problem single-tabling and beating the games I play in.

From my first post:

"That's one of the reasons I started playing stud again a few weeks ago. I single-table it and pay close attention to what's happening. I can play at higher limits because I'm not multi-tabling and <font color="blue">I don't really care if anyone is using stud i******** because I can keep track of the cards just as well as it can when single-tabling . Plus, any multi-tablers in the game are bound to be playing some level of auto-pilot which makes them vulnerable </font>. Obviously this isn't as profitable as multi-tabling Omaha or Hold Em, but it's pure poker. Not some hyped up ritalin fest like playing 12 tables of hold em and omaha with PT and PTO and GT+ and playerview all running."

[BeerMoney]

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ok im a cheater. i admit it. happy?

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Not really. Stop cheating and I will be.