Move up, to force myself to improve?

[mack848]

I currently play 2/4 and believe that I am a small winner ~ 1-1.5 BB/100 (I've played 10k of 50/1, 1/2 and 15k of 2/4). I know that I am not great, but I'm better than most 2/4 opponents. I am definately not a 3BB/100 guy.

Problem is, I am not a naturally driven person. I feel that it is quite likely the I am in a comfort zone at 2/4, where I am gradually increasing my BR with a combination of winnings and bonuses. For instance, I have realised that I usually only replay my hands after a big losing session - even though I know that I should examine my play on winning nights too.

So I have the idea of moving to 3/6 and forcing myself to put in more effort and improve - as I hate losing. I have about 330BB for 3/6 and I am prepared to risk much of it - paying for my education if you like.

Clearly, moving up once you are confident of beating a new level is the optimum way to go - but I feel that this option might be a way of avoiding stagnation - at the possible cost of a chunk of my BR. Of course, I might find that this is above the ceiling of my ability.

Any thought/advice would be appreciated.

Mack

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
I currently play 2/4 and believe that I am a small winner ~ 1-1.5 BB/100 (I've played 10k of 50/1, 1/2 and 15k of 2/4). I know that I am not great, but I'm better than most 2/4 opponents. I am definately not a 3BB/100 guy.

Problem is, I am not a naturally driven person. I feel that it is quite likely the I am in a comfort zone at 2/4, where I am gradually increasing my BR with a combination of winnings and bonuses. For instance, I have realised that I usually only replay my hands after a big losing session - even though I know that I should examine my play on winning nights too.

So I have the idea of moving to 3/6 and forcing myself to put in more effort and improve - as I hate losing. I have about 330BB for 3/6 and I am prepared to risk much of it - paying for my education if you like.

Clearly, moving up once you are confident of beating a new level is the optimum way to go - but I feel that this option might be a way of avoiding stagnation - at the possible cost of a chunk of my BR. Of course, I might find that this is above the ceiling of my ability.

Any thought/advice would be appreciated.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

You know yourself best. It seems to me like a costly way to motivate yourself.

[philnewall]

3/6 is about the same as 2/4 in way of your opponents playing ability, move up, and tighten up (especially with the 1/3 small blind). You should be fine, other than your swings increasing if you are game selective it isn't a big deal.

[LImitPlayer]

I would suggest that you stay at 2-4 and improve your game there. With a winrate of 1-1.5bb/100 hands you have some leaks to plug before moving up to 3-6. Plugging those leaks at 2-4 will be a lot less painful then plugging them at 3-6.

A lot of people say there isn't much of a difference
between the 2 levels but I say they are wrong. 2-4 is not 3-6(just my 2 cents)

Posters have said that if you can beat 2-4 you can beat 3-6 and i disagree with that as well. Someone with a winrate of 1 bb/100 hands at 2-4 may not be able to beat the 3-6 game where someone with a winrate of 3BB/100 hands over a sufficient sample size will most definately be able to beat that game


The aggresion factor is noticably turned up a notch or two,

At most tables you will be punished for limping with hands that were limpable in 2-4 and will end up calling 2 bets to see the flop. Yes there are some lose passive tables at 3-6 but that is not the norm.

You will encounter more semi-bluffs, check raises, raising middle pairs etc than you will see at 2-4.

Also you say your winrate is somewhere in the 1-1.5 BB/100 hand range. You should know what this is and not have to guess at it, you may be overstating or understating your winrate

[cookie]

"For instance, I have realised that I usually only replay my hands after a big losing session - even though I know that I should examine my play on winning nights too. "

Is it normal to replay your hands? Im asking because I have never done so...

[Greg J]

I'm at 1/2, though contemplating a move up to 2/4. One thing I have done lately is start playing in more tournaments. Obviously, this is different than ring play, and forces you to work on differnt aspects of playing poker. But I do think it is "improving" me. Since I prefer NL touneys, when I go back to limit ring games and get a good but not great hand on the flop, I will ask myself how I can protect the hand, which has I believe improved me as a player. This is just an example, but I think mixing up yr play like this instead of just moving up limits is a big step towards improvement.

[mack848]

Yes, I have done similar. I played a few k hands of 1/2 6-max and a few NL SNGs and $25 dollar NL ring games.

I see playing more limit 6-max as a viable option to moving to 3/6. I was a small loser overall in 6-max and did not feel comfortable. I seemed to always choose the wrong times to play back at the terrible LAGS.

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
Also you say your winrate is somewhere in the 1-1.5 BB/100 hand range. You should know what this is and not have to guess at it, you may be overstating or understating your winrate

[/ QUOTE ]

I do know what my win rate after 15k hands is, but I know that this is unlikely to be my actual win rate. No-one knows their true win rate after these few hands - I am fairly confident that I am a small winner.

I appreciate your other comments.

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it normal to replay your hands? Im asking because I have never done so...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I had the enthusiasm/time to do so more often.

I had a bad session last night, -35BB. I went through the hands this lunchtime and realised that I had misplayed a couple of big hands, but had been unlucky in many more. On four occasions I had QQ or JJ and lost to turned or rivered Aces. Now, rather than beating myself up about my game, I have regained my confidence and convinced myself that it was mostly variance - not crap play or tilt.

[xCEO]

[ QUOTE ]
3/6 is about the same as 2/4

[/ QUOTE ]

Bullshit

[LImitPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3/6 is about the same as 2/4

[/ QUOTE ]

Bullshit

[/ QUOTE ]

Short and sweet

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3/6 is about the same as 2/4

[/ QUOTE ]

Bullshit

[/ QUOTE ]

It was Philnewall that said this - I am well aware that 3/6 is tougher.

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me like a costly way to motivate yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Question is, if I assume that:
a) I am truly a small winner at 2/4
b) That 3/6 is tougher than 2/4
c) That I'll play 2 tables instead of 3 or 4
d) I improve at a faster rate than currently

How expensive is it likely to be?

I would hope to be no worse than a -1BB/100 player after a few k hands (although I know that variance would have a huge impact on my actual BR at this point.)

[CheckFold]

I think you know it's impossible for anyone to give you an accurate estimate over a few thousand hands. You could crush the game at a 4bb/100 clip even if you're at a break even skill level. It probably shouldn't be too costly from an EV standpoint. -1BB/100 over a few k is very losing for a full ring game. I personally think you should find some way to motivate yourself and stick with 2/4 until you're crushing the game.

[bernie]

Seems like the money itself has too much meaning to your game.

b

[chesspain]

Play at the level at which you feel most comfortable. This is still a game, for Christ's sakes!

[mack848]

That's not how I see it. I am prepared to use/risk my roll to help me move up. I feel that 'buying' experience at the next level and possibly paying a coach to go through some hands might advance my game faster than it is currently.

It's a thought; a possible alternative to staying at 2/4 until I feel I am killing it.

As for the money, my wife doesn't even know that I have 2k in Neteller! I am genuinely more interested more in finding how out how far I can get. I'm simply looking at how I might go about this in the most efficient/timely manner

Thanks for your input.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
3/6 is about the same as 2/4 in way of your opponents playing ability, move up, and tighten up (especially with the 1/3 small blind). You should be fine, other than your swings increasing if you are game selective it isn't a big deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, this sounds like a person who hasn't played much 3/6 lately (or 2/4, whichever is the case).


Adam

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the money, my wife doesn't even know that I have 2k in Neteller!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is funny on so many different levels.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Adam

[helpmeout]

If you cant beat $2/$4 for 3bb/100+ (2tabling) then dont bother moving up.

The opposition only gets tougher as you move up, your BB/100 wont improve and eventually you will hit the wall and give up.

If you want to improve just buy more books and force yourself to read them. Then analyze your game and think while you are playing.

[lozen]

I have played 2/4 than 3/6 and up to 5/10. Now I am at 10/20 at it amzes me that the players have been worse as i move up. It seems there are more just for fun players at these levels.

[PokerMike]

This is BAD advice. Variance on its own can and will stop a good player from attaining 3bb/100 in many many cases unless the sample size is massive(the opposite is also true). You don't need to play 100's of thousands of hands(2tabling no less) to know you can beat 2/4 for a reasonable amount(3bb/100 sets the bar way way too high) and have a good chance at beating 3/6.

[TimM]

I agree with this. Just earn the bankroll you need and move up. You can always go back down to regroup if you lose or don't feel comfortable.

I went from 1/2 to 15/30 in 5 months, and back down to 10/20 then 5/10 then 3/6 as I wasn't happy with my results at each level.

[helpmeout]

Doesnt take much to beat $2/$4 for 3bb/100 its not like a magical high number that a bad run will stop you from achieving.

Any chimp can beat 2/4 for 2bb/100 and also beat 3/6, but it is better to stay ahead of the game. When you do move up you want to have the skills and experience to adapt, a 2bb/100 player from low limits is marginal. Getting your ass handed to you at a new limit is devastating to most people.

It is much easier to go from 3bb/100 to 1.5bb/100 than 2bb/100 to breakeven/marginal winner.

If you cant crush the lower limit games dont even waste your time moving up.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesnt take much to beat $2/$4 for 3bb/100 its not like a magical high number that a bad run will stop you from achieving.

Any chimp can beat 2/4 for 2bb/100 and also beat 3/6, but it is better to stay ahead of the game. When you do move up you want to have the skills and experience to adapt, a 2bb/100 player from low limits is marginal. Getting your ass handed to you at a new limit is devastating to most people.

It is much easier to go from 3bb/100 to 1.5bb/100 than 2bb/100 to breakeven/marginal winner.

If you cant crush the lower limit games dont even waste your time moving up.

[/ QUOTE ]

You certainly make a number of authoritative pronouncements about low limit games for someone who posts almost exclusively in the Heads-up and Shorthanded forum. Maybe you shouldn't give such arrogant advice when it is likely that you don't even play small stakes, full ring games.

[helpmeout]

I have obviously played low limit ring games otherwise I wouldnt make such statements. Have they become difficult in the last 5months? I doubt it, the games I play in certainly arent too hard.

If you find them difficult then you should probably stop trying to annoy people and work on your game.

Even post something useful once in a while instead of a flame.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I have obviously played low limit ring games otherwise I wouldnt make such statements. Have they become difficult in the last 5months? I doubt it, the games I play in certainly arent too hard.

If you find them difficult then you should probably stop trying to annoy people and work on your game.

Even post something useful once in a while instead of a flame.

[/ QUOTE ]


I also found this response from Helpmeout in another recent thread:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a pro yet but it has been my aim since I started playing about 7months ago...I have probably only played around 80k hands total from 5c/10c up to 10/20 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]


All of us chimps who beat the 2/4 game for 2BB/100 thank you for the knowledge the gleaned in the couple of months and few thousand hands you logged at the 2/4 and 3/6 levels.

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
Even post something useful once in a while instead of a flame.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you expect when you insult a great many 2+2ers by insisting that a chimp can beat the game that they play in?

A fairly small minority of players at 2/4 or 3/6 make 2BB/100. Chimps they are not.

[PokerMike]

helpmeout, i understand your reasoning, but i think that the gauge you(or i) have on our true winrate at these limits has such a huge error that making these statements is of little use.

I don't think you should be using this critera when deciding when to move up(for the above reason). Better critera IMHO are those such as bankroll, your grasp of small stakes concepts, confidence in your game etc..

[helpmeout]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you expect when you insult a great many 2+2ers by insisting that a chimp can beat the game that they play in?

[/ QUOTE ]

People who cant beat 2/4 for a good amount are either new and arent yet at that level or lazy.

If you want some advice on improving your winrate then I'd suggest reading ITH,SSHE,MLH,TOP,HEPFAP,IYP,RP2,POP and ITPM for the moment (if you dont know what they stand for go to books and software).

Also read the archives because the quality of information is much better than what you will find now.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want some advice on improving your winrate then I'd suggest reading ITH,SSHE,MLH,TOP,HEPFAP,IYP,RP2,POP and ITPM for the moment (if you dont know what they stand for go to books and software).

Also read the archives because the quality of information is much better than what you will find now.

[/ QUOTE ]

How deliciously condescending...

-Brad