View Full Version : JJ capped pot
TStoneMBD
03-11-2005, 03:40 AM
SB in hand has a VPIP of 60 after about 40 hands.
As a side note, are these 3/6 games really all that juicy? I've only started 4 tabling them, but the average table VPIP is about 23. Is this the average that you guys all get or have I just picked some really bad tables?
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls.
Flop: (15 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.
Turn: (12 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, SB calls.
River: (14 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.
Final Pot: 16 BB
Danenania
03-11-2005, 05:03 AM
I would call the flop and raise a safe turn.
Seems to me the board scared an overpair, and you're calling down second best. AK would have dumped on the turn unless it's got a flush draw that it now has, I think I would have checked through the river.
bakku
03-11-2005, 05:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded pre-
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Bad fold.
folding preflop isn't as bad as you think, but lemme run some numbers to make sure.
Depending on what you think CO will 3-bet with, you're either about even on equity (If he will 3-bet preflop with AJs, AQs, AQo, and KQs), or you're behind by a relatively good margin, 32% for the 3-bettor, and 24.5% for you.
Here's my ranges.
preflop raiser
AA-99, AKs-AJs, KQs-KJs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo
preflop 3-bettor
AA-TT, AKs, AKo
preflop 3-coldcaller
AA-99, AKs-AJs, KQs-KJs, QJs, AKo-AQo
Try switching around the 3-bettor's stats, but it still looks like you're behind.
RolldUp
03-11-2005, 05:25 AM
bad table selection, i leave when vpip goes below 25, if 3 6 isnt any good move down to 2 4, some games will be good usually.
[ QUOTE ]
folding preflop isn't as bad as you think, but lemme run some numbers to make sure.
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I think with SB in, this is at least a call if not a correct raise.
JJ is likely to be ahead of the initial raisier, there are a lot of players in. JJ is likely behind the three-bettor, but not by much. I think I take the discount and call since I get the BB discount.
Vern
bakku
03-11-2005, 05:35 AM
If my opponents flashed me their AA and KK I still wouldn't fold.
edit: If they showed me AA/KK I'd be even more inclined to call.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
folding preflop isn't as bad as you think, but lemme run some numbers to make sure.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think with SB in, this is at least a call if not a correct raise.
JJ is likely to be ahead of the initial raisier, there are a lot of players in. JJ is likely behind the three-bettor, but not by much. I think I take the discount and call since I get the BB discount.
Vern
[/ QUOTE ]
The initial raiser being in is the only reason why the equity edge for the 3-bettor isn't a lot bigger, and there's no guarantee that you can depend on his extra 2SB, a smart player's going to fold a good portion of his one-limper raising hands.
TStoneMBD
03-11-2005, 05:38 AM
SB showed 67o for flopped twopair and took it down.
i guess that there are times in which the 3/6 games are in fact good.
TStoneMBD
03-11-2005, 05:39 AM
i really feel like i shouldnt have valuebetted this river. the way SB played this hand i really have to hope that hes in the pot with something like A7s. there are just too many hands that im behind of here. granted, his line definitely looks week, but after seeing results it appears that he slowed down in fear that someone magically caught a straight with an 8 in their hand.
btw, folding is obviously a mistake. lets not continue that debate please.
[ QUOTE ]
folding preflop isn't as bad as you think, but lemme run some numbers to make sure.
Depending on what you think CO will 3-bet with, you're either about even on equity (If he will 3-bet preflop with AJs, AQs, AQo, and KQs), or you're behind by a relatively good margin, 32% for the 3-bettor, and 24.5% for you.
Here's my ranges.
preflop raiser
AA-99, AKs-AJs, KQs-KJs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo
preflop 3-bettor
AA-TT, AKs, AKo
preflop 3-coldcaller
AA-99, AKs-AJs, KQs-KJs, QJs, AKo-AQo
Try switching around the 3-bettor's stats, but it still looks like you're behind.
[/ QUOTE ]
The JJ is in the BB, there are 11 bets in the pot, he has to call 2 and there is a likelihood of more bets get in the pot. I think folding is a mistake since it is more than just aggressors in the pot. Especially the SB calling 2.5 makes a call at least neutral. As for a raise at this point, if it knocks out the original raiser's KQ or the overcards UTG limped with, all the better. The pot is already big, I don't mind driving some people out.
Vern
Standard Disclaimer, I am by no means an expert at any of this.
I wasn't at all advocating a cold-call to keep the raiser in the hand, and even with the BB 25% discount, you're putting in 3SBs for a 17SB pot with a roughly equal or more likely unfavorable equity edge, and reverse domination is going to easily be a prominent factor having 3 opponents when you have to call down.
Alexthegreat
03-11-2005, 05:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ JJ is likely behind the three-bettor, but not by much.
[/ QUOTE ]
If JJ is behind anything, it's by a lot, like, a big lot, also known as dominated....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ JJ is likely behind the three-bettor, but not by much.
[/ QUOTE ]
If JJ is behind anything, it's by a lot, like, a big lot, also known as dominated....
[/ QUOTE ]
A reasonable player would three-bet with AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ, TT and maybe AQs.
JJ is ahead of AK(16), TT(6) (22 hands)
JJ is behing AA(6), KK(6), QQ(6) (18 hands)
What I meant was in equity before the flop against the range of the three-bettors hands. With the equity that JJ has here, against this many opponents, there is no way I am dumping it and after thinking about it I think this might be a good place to cap with it. I would rather have position to do that, but even if I decide not to raise, I am not folding with these opponents, especially with the discount.
Vern
Standard Disclaimer, I am by no means an expert at any of this
Alexthegreat
03-11-2005, 06:15 AM
yep, you thought about it, realized that capping was good, and folding was terrible...good play
Either cap or fold, getting the raiser out of there would be primo. This isn't HU, and you've got a wide range of hands for the pf raiser and a smaller range of powerful hands for the 3-bettor and the cold-caller, so you can safely assume you might very well be behind all but TT and AK, but against two opponents with AK, AA, KK, QQ and TT you've only got a 52% chance you're ahead from the get-go, not even considering what the raiser has. Say they both do have AK, that's another 26% chance an A or K falls on the flop. One having AK and one having AQ isn't good at all for you either, that means 8 cards are bad for you instead of 4, and there's a 52% chance an A,K, or Q falls.
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