Medium PP strategy deep in tourneys

[young nut]

This is a part of my game that I think I need to get a better understanding of how to correctly play. I am talking about late in a large MTT, say 30 players remaining. How should you treat pocket pairs, 6's-9's? I usually play 10's and up fairly strong, and I usually only play 5's and lower on a steal from LP.

The situation I am referring to is when you are in middle or early position with say 9 9. Lets assume the blinds are 2k and 4k with the average stack around 45k. You are sitting on about a 35k stack. Do you raise? Do you still try to limp and see a flop or perhaps bet the flop against the blinds and pickup the pot? Do you push immediately? Assume an average table, most people playing fairly tight but the folks on the blinds will come over the top to defend occasionally.

A couple hands in question:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t3000 (7 handed) Final 3 tables 27 players remain converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t24900)
MP1 (t66000)
MP2 (t31871)
CO (t49260)
Button (t25314)
Hero (t26423)
BB (t54349)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t9150</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t26423</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: t36323

Was this a good move? My read on Mp1, he was somewhat aggressive, stealing occasionally, but at this point, we haven't seen anyones hole cards unless 2 people are all in. Regardless of the results here, I just kept thinking this was a bad move for some reason. On a side note, MP1 said he folded pocket 9's.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t4000 (9 handed) Final 2 tables, 18 players remain. converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t19900)
CO (t59438)
Button (t44200)
SB (t28871)
BB (t36460)
UTG (t98330)
UTG+1 (t29914)
Hero (t38973)
MP2 (t70499)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t12000</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t36260</font>, Hero calls t24260.

Flop: (t73920) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t73920) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t73920) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t73920

Correct call? BB had succesfully come over the top of an opponent and forced him to fold on a previous hand. the only hand I was able to see BB showdown was pocket aces, he slow played them to a raise. So in this situation, I figured I would likely be in a coinflip situation (I could be wrong though) The pot was already up to 50k and it was 24k for me to call, giving me the correct odds to call against high broadway cards for a coinflip. Would anyone lay this down? Did I play this correctly?

[RRRRICK]

Great post, pity no one cares

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post, pity no one cares

[/ QUOTE ]

??? I'm lost. I didn't post any results. I'm not worried about results, just worried about the way I played the hands.

[RRRRICK]

You need to learn that people here are egomaniacs who only only like to talk about themselves. No one care about your hand.

[AnyTwoCanLose]

In my view, you are playing it all wrong.

low PPs are drawing hands. You want to play them as cheaply as possible in hopes of hitting the set. Without the set... they are worthless.

That means that if you aren't against a lot of hands in a game that's pretty passive preflop I'd fold them.

Play them similar to suited low connectors.

[SoBeDude]

Please, someone tell me this guy isn't serious.

-Scott

[ZBTHorton]

Well AnyTwo...

In my view, I don't think you make many final tables.

[AnyTwoCanLose]

It's a common beginners mistake to overestimate the value of any pair.

Aggresion's often not bad. Any time everyone else folds, you take the pot. It doesn't have anything to do with your pair, though.

Take a pair of 7s, for example. Its true that they are a coin-flip against two overcards... but they are huge dogs to any pair that's higher. You are either a huge underdog or a slight favorite.

That's assuming you run the cards hot and cold. As a practical matter... when you play a medium pair you have a tough decision when an overcard or two flops.

You have no idea whether or not you are good or not.

Contrast that with a player playing overcards. If a player has AQ and a Q hits... he knows where he is. Similarly if a J hits, that player knows as well.

Medium pair is not much of a hand. You can either win a little or lose a lot with them.

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a common beginners mistake to overestimate the value of any pair.

Aggresion's often not bad. Any time everyone else folds, you take the pot. It doesn't have anything to do with your pair, though.

Take a pair of 7s, for example. Its true that they are a coin-flip against two overcards... but they are huge dogs to any pair that's higher. You are either a huge underdog or a slight favorite.

That's assuming you run the cards hot and cold. As a practical matter... when you play a medium pair you have a tough decision when an overcard or two flops.

You have no idea whether or not you are good or not.

Contrast that with a player playing overcards. If a player has AQ and a Q hits... he knows where he is. Similarly if a J hits, that player knows as well.

Medium pair is not much of a hand. You can either win a little or lose a lot with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking about DEEP in the tourney, where only around 30 or 20 left. When the blinds are so high that any raise is almost pot committing yourself. The idea of winning a little or losing a lot doesn't come into play, b/c most likely I would be all in on a coinflip. So I either double up or bust out. I am just looking for some solid advice on the correct way to play them at this stage, and maybe for someone to take a look at the sample hands I posted and suggest any ways to play them differently or give me their opinions.

[CardSharpCook]

Young nut, I really like the first hand. You identified an aggressive player and you played back at him. Aggression at this stage of the tourney indicates a quility player (constant agros find a quick exit usually). Quality players are cabable of laying down a hand they raise with PF. You are taking a risk - he probably raises with AA-JJ AK/AQ PF too and these hands he'll call with. But, the majority of his PF raising hands, he folds here. So you push back at him and take down a much bigger pot than a simple blind steal. In my experience, the ability to take these blind+1 pots often make all the difference in the world. If you rely simply on stealing blinds, you are just waiting for luck to make you a winner - all the other "good" players at the table are doing the same thing. Create your own "luck" by playing back at the players who are taking more than their fair share of the blinds. These players feel that they've got a good thing going - they are running over the table and don't need to risk it all on a coin flip (in this case, he felt that 99 was a coin flip). Hell, as far as he is concerned, he just gave back the blind he stole from you last hand.

Also, if he has a premium hand, there are 32 combos of AK/AQ, 24 combos of JJ-AA - so if he does call, you are more likely to find yourself in a coin flip than as a big dog.

Good play.

As for the second hand... That is really tough. Ordinarily, I don't mind walking away from this hand... but given the action on the previous hand.... He may be doing this with AX... Of course, "past results have no bearing on future outcomes." Just because he had a monster last hand doesn't mean he can't have a monster this hand. But psychology plays a role here. When he took down the last pot, his brain released a slew of feel-good endorphins... and he liked that. He wants to feel that way again. Those endorphins are effecting his thinking.

Add to all that the pot odds of 2:1 and the likelyhood that you are a slight favorite... I think this is a call. I do fold this sometimes, with the reasoning being, "I'll still have 6xBB and if I must trust in luck, 88 is not the hand I want."

So, I think you played them both well. Congrats.

CSC

[young nut]

Thank you for your comments cook. I felt that I needed to play back at some point to the player in hand 1, he was being fairly aggressive and at the same time my stack was dwindling.

The second hand I didn't figure him for a monster b/c of the way he played his previous monster (he slowplayed instead of reraising all in PF) So his reraise told me that I was most likely up against broadway cards, and at worst a higher pocket pair (something like 99-QQ)

The problem that I seem to be dealing with is the cold fact that "a player must win coinflips to cash high in a tourney" I've heard it tons of times, but I'm just trying to figure out the best times to take these coinflips.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]

The problem that I seem to be dealing with is the cold fact that "a player must win coinflips to cash high in a tourney" I've heard it tons of times, but I'm just trying to figure out the best times to take these coinflips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I hear this "fact of poker" a bunch too. This hand isn't a must. I think it is a good decision, but you can lay this one down as well, and your reads is what will determine your play. I think that phrase refers to all those hands in which somehow all your chips ended up in the middle and the two players showed AK and 99 or hands of that ilk. Or it can refer to when a player is down to his last 3BB and has no choice but to start flipping coins. But you have (a little) room to manuever here. If you read the raiser as a T/P who always folds to raises PF, you can lay this down.


CSC

[sdplayerb]

Hand 1: 7 handed and you are getting to be a short stack, yes I'm pushing here unless on the bubble, especially against an aggressive player. I am not thrilled about it, but getting too short.
His fold was very bad.

Hand 2: I would pushin in the first place. When there are antes, if I am raising with 10x or less, I am pushing in.
Your call was automatic per how you played it as your odds were extremely high.

When I a less than 20x, really 30x, I'm never open limping.
It is raise or fold.

[young nut]

Well, instead of starting a new thread to gloat, I just thought I would post here and thank everyone at 2+2 for helping me out. I ended up chopping while heads up in tonights stars 11 rebuys. Prize of 2200 not bad for a few hours work. Oh, and I also had a few decision involving pocket pairs late in the tournie, so much thanks to the advice given here. =-)

[Mike Gallo]

I raise 4x the blinds with almost all pocket pairs. If I get reraised I might release player dependant. If I get called I have utilize my post flop skills and play poker.

I like how you played hand one, IMHO you played it very well.

Hand 2 I prefer a reraise to a call, however calling isnt too bad.

[Mike Gallo]

Great post, you bring trolling to a new level.

[young nut]

Mike, I usually take apply the same strategy with pocket pairs around the bubble and early in the money. Raise 3 or 4x bb and hope for folds. But what I am concerned with is when you are sitting on a measly 10bb. Raising 3xbb would be almost a third of your stack.

I usually dump all pairs 5 and under in this situation, simply because they are too weak if called or pushed against. But it is the middle hands that I wonder about. Should I just push my whole stack PF with 8's and up when my stack gets that low?

[Mike Gallo]

Should I just push my whole stack PF with 8's and up when my stack gets that low?

I have. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[murfnyc]

Hand 1: Looks good. You made a move based on your read. Nice job and you're probably still only a 2:1 dog against his range of calling hands there.

Hand 2: Quick question, do you only call a push from the BB because of your read? Do you call if CO, button or SB push? If so, pushing all-in is obviously the better play because of your increased FE.

Also, if you think you may fold to a re-raise, try raising 2.5xBB instead of 3xBB, late in the tourney it accomplishes the same thing and doesn't make you as pot-committed when around 10BBs.

BTW, Congrats on your chop.

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Looks good. You made a move based on your read. Nice job and you're probably still only a 2:1 dog against his range of calling hands there.

Hand 2: Quick question, do you only call a push from the BB because of your read? Do you call if CO, button or SB push? If so, pushing all-in is obviously the better play because of your increased FE.

Also, if you think you may fold to a re-raise, try raising 2.5xBB instead of 3xBB, late in the tourney it accomplishes the same thing and doesn't make you as pot-committed when around 10BBs.

BTW, Congrats on your chop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks murphy. That is a good question you pose, would I call if CO pushed or button pushed. I think it would be a tougher call, but I probably would have called either way.

I started to raise 2.5bb for a little bit late in this tourney, but it seemed that every time I raised a small amount someone would always push over top sensing weakness. So I felt that I was stuck raising 3xbb or more. The people at my table were very very aggressive PF, and I didn't get a chance to make a statement by 2.5bb raising a premium hand. I think that really helps your steals when you make a smallish raise with a big hand (KK or AA), that way people will respect your smallish raise just as much as a large one.

[SoBeDude]

The problem that I seem to be dealing with is the cold fact that "a player must win coinflips to cash high in a tourney" I've heard it tons of times, but I'm just trying to figure out the best times to take these coinflips.

The thing people miss with the above concept is this:

If you perpetually put your tourney life on the line with "coinflips" you're inevitably going to lose.

Yes, you're close to 50-50 to win ONE coinflip, but do you know what your odds are of winning 6 in a row? One time in 64. The other 63 times you try it you're out. So who wants to put themselves in a 63-1 shot? not me!

The real key is EVERYTHING ELSE that occurs in the tourney, all the other small opportunities to accumulate chips that MUST be taken. The bets with nothing but position that take pots, the stone-cold bluffs, the steals, the max extractions when u hit a big hand, etc, etc.

The real beauty of coinflips is when your opponent has HIS life on the line, not yours. Then if you lose one it doesn't matter as much because you're still in the game.

This perception that tourney success is relying on coinflips is really a mistake, and an improper focus.

The 'tight play' style, waiting on big hands, waiting for hitting the flops, this doesn't win its share. Neither does relying on coinflips.

-Scott

[sdplayerb]

congrats..you're welcome.

[CardSharpCook]

Congrats on your win, man!

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem that I seem to be dealing with is the cold fact that "a player must win coinflips to cash high in a tourney" I've heard it tons of times, but I'm just trying to figure out the best times to take these coinflips.

The thing people miss with the above concept is this:

If you perpetually put your tourney life on the line with "coinflips" you're inevitably going to lose.

Yes, you're close to 50-50 to win ONE coinflip, but do you know what your odds are of winning 6 in a row? One time in 64. The other 63 times you try it you're out. So who wants to put themselves in a 63-1 shot? not me!

The real key is EVERYTHING ELSE that occurs in the tourney, all the other small opportunities to accumulate chips that MUST be taken. The bets with nothing but position that take pots, the stone-cold bluffs, the steals, the max extractions when u hit a big hand, etc, etc.

The real beauty of coinflips is when your opponent has HIS life on the line, not yours. Then if you lose one it doesn't matter as much because you're still in the game.

This perception that tourney success is relying on coinflips is really a mistake, and an improper focus.

The 'tight play' style, waiting on big hands, waiting for hitting the flops, this doesn't win its share. Neither does relying on coinflips.

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good post Scott, I understand completely what you are saying. I do take advantage of positional steals on occasion, at least enough to keep me alive and kicking. I also do not try to get myself into coinflip positions if I can help it. I am not advocating winning numerous coinflips to make it to the final table, I am merely trying to figure out the best time to take the inevitable coinflip that will almost always occur.

[SoBeDude]

thanks.

I guess what I'm saying is if you watch top pros play, they don't want to get all their chips in the middle. They play "small bet" poker. They pick up lots of little pots, and accumulate a significant stack. Now granted, when things don't go their way (as is often the case), they might have to rely on a coinflip situation to double-up. Nothing wrong with that.

I guess I just think my focus is (and should be) elsewhere. Did you read my post about QQ in the 1mil tourney on Paradise? When I had a healthy stack (at least 2x avg, and quite deep) I put all my chips in against an UTG limp-reraiser! stupid stupid stupid...! As it was, he turned over AK, about the best I could have hoped for. But the point is, I was NOT in a spot where I needed to put all my chips in the middle on a coinflip. I had worked SO HARD to accumulate a nice stack. Most of the table stayed out of my way. I was accumulating nicely. Then, like a NOOB, I put all my chips and my tourney life on the line with a f*ing coinflip!!! Can u tell I'm mad at myself?

Solid tourney play is not about routine coinflips for all your chips. You take them when u need them. You take them when the pot is giving you good odds. You take them when it's not for your tourney life. You take them when you're desperate.

-Scott