VP$IP at .5/1

[iluzion]

What do all of you who have been or are very succesful at partys .5/1 games have as your VP$IP?

[kenberman]

13% - 24%

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]
13% - 24%

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds about right. It's better to be too tight than too loose. I started around 15.5, but am up to 19.5-20.

It wouldn't surprise me if the optimal were aroung 22-23.

[Isura]

Was about 15 for a long time, these days when I play it's closer to 20. I think about 20-22 is optimal if you understand and can apply the concepts of SSH.

[droolie]

21% pfr 10-11% Given the average pot sizes the implied odds are great with many marginal hands that I would fold at higher limits.

[Vern]

Droolie

How many tables do you you play at the same time? I am unable to get my mind around playing 6-8 tables that loosely.

Vern

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
Droolie

How many tables do you you play at the same time? I am unable to get my mind around playing 6-8 tables that loosely.

Vern

[/ QUOTE ]

you should play less tables and more hands/table. I think your game will improve faster.

jmo.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Droolie

How many tables do you you play at the same time? I am unable to get my mind around playing 6-8 tables that loosely.

Vern

[/ QUOTE ]

It's much more profitable to learn to play 2 or 3 tables properly, then add tables, than to play 6-8 tables in a subpar fashion.

I'd say ideal for .5/1 would be 22-24% for a good postflop player. I'm around 22%VPIP/12% PFR, but I've still got a lot of learning to do.

Rob

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
Droolie

How many tables do you you play at the same time? I am unable to get my mind around playing 6-8 tables that loosely.

Vern

[/ QUOTE ]
I four-table with no overlap on a 2001fp. No problems at all. I think I could add a couple more but I can't stand looking at two screens. My second monitor is a CRT and the difference between the two is stark. The strobbing effect on a CRT is tough to look at for many hours str8.

What do you use for a monitor set up? I highly recommend getting an LCD with 1600x 1200 or two. Overlap is death to mutlitabling sanity. I'm probably going to buy a second LCD before the year is through. I want the next one to be bigger than the 2001fp as text is a little small for my taste. I guess I'll have to drop a HUGE wad for a 24" to satisfy my sensitive girly eyes.

[Marquis]

I'm at 18.5%. I'm pretty sure I know how I'd get to +20%. I'd limp with suited connectors in EP, I'd be open raising or raising with one limper ATo and KJo in earlier spots where I am folding them now, and I might add Q9s and K8s to my EP limps. I'm not sure it's worth all that extra clicking when I'm 4-tabling.

I have no idea how I'd get to 25%. Limp with KTo in MP3? Play J8s and T8s? I can't find many more hands to play.

Edit: 24%, 25%, whatever, you get the idea.

[Vern]

I have one 2001FP and one NEC 19" at 75Hz refresh, I get no flicker. 3200x1600 desktop. I have 4 tables down cold, I am trying to add more so I can fill both monitors, no overlap, 8 screens. I just got a great deal on a Dell Server Class machine ($229) (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/pedge_sc420?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd) so I can put PT on the server instead of on my main rig.

I love the 2001FPS, I am going to get another one soon, they are down under $500 now, or maybe get the Widescreen Version (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/ProductDetail.aspx?sku=320-4221&c=us&cat=snp&category_id=6198&cs=04&l=en&mnf= 694&Page=productlisting.aspx) But regardless I will need a couple of new monitors soon.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm at 18.5%. I'm pretty sure I know how I'd get to +20%. I'd limp with suited connectors in EP, I'd be open raising or raising with one limper ATo and KJo in earlier spots where I am folding them now, and I might add Q9s and K8s to my EP limps. I'm not sure it's worth all that extra clicking when I'm 4-tabling.

I have no idea how I'd get to 25%. Limp with KTo in MP3? Play J8s and T8s? I can't find many more hands to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's interesting how common opinion on this board has changed in the last 5 months or so. I'd say in the fall, most people believed 18-19% was about "right" for .50/1. Now a lot of people (inc. myself) think the range is a good 3 points higher than that.

To your post, Marquis, I played at about 23 VPIP in .50/1, and couldn't find less hands to play. I play any pocket pair in any position for 1 bet. I play any suited A from any position for 1 bet. I have positive winrates with these hands. (I play 1/2 6 max now, and I should't even publically admit my VPIP in that game)

I think the larger question is this: are you more concerned with improving your game, or not being bothered to click 'call' with marginal hands?

Playing marginal +EV hands well is a tough thing to do, but I'm trying to do it. My game is better for it.

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]
I have one 2001FP and one NEC 19" at 75Hz refresh, I get no flicker. 3200x1600 desktop. I have 4 tables down cold, I am trying to add more so I can fill both monitors, no overlap, 8 screens. I just got a great deal on a Dell Server Class machine ($229) (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/pedge_sc420?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd) so I can put PT on the server instead of on my main rig.

I love the 2001FPS, I am going to get another one soon, they are down under $500 now, or maybe get the Widescreen Version (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/ProductDetail.aspx?sku=320-4221&c=us&cat=snp&category_id=6198&cs=04&l=en&mnf= 694&Page=productlisting.aspx) But regardless I will need a couple of new monitors soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

That 2405fpw is pretty tempting, isn't it. I think I'm going to pick up the 4:3 one, however. Once my bankroll hits ~1200, hello 2001fp!

[DocMartin]

Mine was 23% but that is likely on the high side.

http://www.gammoned.com/poker/images/51stat.jpg

I think the optimal number depends on your style of play ie. how often you raise, how aggressive you are, how much variance you are comfortable with. I am not sure whether it would be harder to add hands if you were a tighter player or to cut hands out if you played more loosely.

[Vern]

But with my results I think I play pretty good(don't we all say that), just not 20+, more like 18%. I just don't feel comfortable playing that loose at anything but the 7-10 to see a flop like tables and while I find them, the general table doesn't get that way except at B&M. I review just about all my hands in PT, and I just don't see where I can increase hands. I won't play at a table I cannot limp suited aces & small PP UTG regularly w/o a raise. I pick position to the left of fish and right of TAGs, pick my spots based on how many are in the hand.

I personally don't think I would be comfortable anywhere above 19/10 unless it was the aforementioned 7-10 to a flop every hand. And when Droolie mentioned 20+, I couldn't even get my mind around it for one, and I knew he multitabled.

I guess I will have to be satisfied with being tighter than Droolie /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Thanks

Vern

[Marquis]

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's interesting how common opinion on this board has changed in the last 5 months or so. I'd say in the fall, most people believed 18-19% was about "right" for .50/1. Now a lot of people (inc. myself) think the range is a good 3 points higher than that.

To your post, Marquis, I played at about 23 VPIP in .50/1, and couldn't find less hands to play. I play any pocket pair in any position for 1 bet. I play any suited A from any position for 1 bet. I have positive winrates with these hands. (I play 1/2 6 max now, and I should't even publically admit my VPIP in that game)

I think the larger question is this: are you more concerned with improving your game, or not being bothered to click 'call' with marginal hands?

Playing marginal +EV hands well is a tough thing to do, but I'm trying to do it. My game is better for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I thought a situation was +EV, I'd play. But as far as your examples, if I have 22 or A5s and it's folded to me in MP2, folding is +EV unless I have a bunch of stations behind me. Simply playing a hand for one bet from any position without evaluating the situation is wrong.

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]
Mine was 23% but that is likely on the high side.

http://www.gammoned.com/poker/images/51stat.jpg


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that if you're playing 23% of your hands, you should be raising a lot more than 7.5% of them. JMHO.

I saw from your other post that you gradually got more aggressive, which is good.

[droolie]

Vern,

Sounds like you have a better set up than me. I agree with Rob that you should play optimally and add tables to that style of play. Wherever you max out, you max out. Just because you have the screenspace for more tables doesn't mean you should use it! That's space is where the 2+2 forums and porn is supposed to go! /images/graemlins/wink.gif I think focusing on playing the best game you can play will better prepare you for making serious money at higher limits someday. I'd rather four-table 3/6 than 8-table .50/1. I don't think eight tabling the tougher limits is all that realistic for most of us mortals anyways.

I don't fold hands due to mutli-tabling. If I think a hand is +EV, even marginally +EV I play it. I don't mind making the suckers wait from time to time! I get the occasional "ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ" or "hurry up" but oh well. It's utypically the more experienced players who want you to play fast anyways so if they leave on account of me good. Sometimes I clock out when I'm focusing too much energy on one of my tougher decions but it doesn't bother me. At four tables I have seldom clock-outs. I probably average about one an hour. I imagine I would have much more frequent clockouts if I added more tables and lose some EV in the process but this would be offset by the added profit.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]

If I thought a situation was +EV, I'd play. But as far as your examples, if I have 22 or A5s and it's folded to me in MP2, folding is +EV unless I have a bunch of stations behind me. Simply playing a hand for one bet from any position without evaluating the situation is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. I should have said I limp in w/ these hands in EP, which is vastly different than how my post read. my bad.

[Marquis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If I thought a situation was +EV, I'd play. But as far as your examples, if I have 22 or A5s and it's folded to me in MP2, folding is +EV unless I have a bunch of stations behind me. Simply playing a hand for one bet from any position without evaluating the situation is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. I should have said I limp in w/ these hands in EP, which is vastly different than how my post read. my bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotcha. What the hell did I say? Is folding considered +EV if it is -EV not to?

[Vern]

Oh well, I was ready to jump to 2/4, but since this is for fun, I am gonna stay at .5/1 and play the next 25K much looser pre-flop. I think I have my post flop down pretty good, thanks SSHE. I will let you know some time next month how I feel about it.

Vern

[droolie]

25,000 more hands?? Why? Because you're not as loose as me at .50/1? That's silly. Take a shot dude! 2/4 aint that tough and you're probably playing well enough to do just fine there.

FWIW I'm kind of a weird (ie. bad player). Part of the reason I'm so loose is that it fits my passive style. I'm quite aggressive preflop and I slow down dramtically afterwards with may drawing type hands. I find this combination has been quite potent at .50/1. I tighten up and attack considerable more postflop when I play 1/2 and 2/4.

I'd be willing to bet many of the hands you could be playing at .50/1 are hands in LP that you raise to isolate a single weak limper. That's the type of thing I wasn't doing previously. I love suited connectors AXs anywhere and I play Kxs and Qxs (and suited one gappers from LP. Pocket pairs are great anywhere. I raise many offsuit hands with high card strength from MP and LP when I think I can isolate.

[Vern]

Not just because your looser, but because I want to know for knowledge reasons, 25K is a good sample size, I can get it done in by mid April and since I will be at least starting uncomfortable, I don't want to worry about short term losses. I have a good sized bankroll so .5/1 really is just for fun.

Vern

[Marquis]

[ QUOTE ]
I love suited connectors AXs anywhere and I play Kxs and Qxs (and suited one gappers from LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many limpers to you before you'll limp with Q2s in the CO? Are Q8s - Q2s winners for you as a group?

[Marquis]

[ QUOTE ]
Not just because your looser, but because I want to know for knowledge reasons, 25K is a good sample size, I can get it done in by mid April and since I will be at least starting uncomfortable, I don't want to worry about short term losses. I have a good sized bankroll so .5/1 really is just for fun.

Vern

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like a waste of effort to me since you're not going to be able to play that loose when you move up anyway. Not that you can't do it, but the situations to do it will arise a lot less often.

[droolie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love suited connectors AXs anywhere and I play Kxs and Qxs (and suited one gappers from LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many limpers to you before you'll limp with Q2s in the CO? Are Q8s - Q2s winners for you as a group?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm looking for a pot that will be 6 way at least with that trash. I really want to flop a flush draw with huge implied odds. So if there have been three or four limpers and I'm in the CO and the table has been quite passive, I'll play it. Those conditions aren't always there so that's a hand I frequently fold BTW. I play them very weak tight when I hit have just Q's and no backdoors. You really have to be able to get away from Qxs when the flop only partially hits you and there is any resistance.

I don't have my PT at work so I'm not sure if they win as a group though when I limp I suspect they do. A large % of my profits come from flushes.

[jluker7]

if your postflop play is very good, 22-23%, if your good postflop 18-20% is your winning number. Also, your preflop raise determines your VPIP (imo).

[bottomset]

I'm on the tighter side of things at 17/9.5

I think its mainly LP play that I'm still not 100% w/ thats were you want to add hands, adding a lot upfront(UTG-UTG+2) is suicide

[Vern]

I think I am just gonna do what SSHE recommends. That does not mean become a chart robot, but I will likely limp earlier with things. Things that were worth a limp in MP I will try limping in EP. Hopefully I can find some table with high VP$IP because I hate cold calling except with certian hands unless it is already a family pot.

Vern