89s raises limpers in LP [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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pokerstudAA

03-10-2005, 02:31 PM

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

With 3 limpers and the blinds. Easy raise? Might get me a free card, this hand plays good multi-way, and I have nice position. Thoughts on the PFR?

Flop: (10.40 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

So I have a pair, a gutshot, and a back door flush. I thought about raising but decided It would be best to peel one off. I did not think a flop raise would do me any good here. Mabye a raise would get me a free card here also? Thoughts on the flop play?

Turn: (7.20 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 folds, MP2 raises, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls.

MP2 was fairly TP - rockish. I assumed his raise meant he had a 7 - giving me 4 outs to the boat. Getting 10:2 odds to call here. No flush - no nothing. 2 pair no good? How confident are we that MP2 has a 7 here?

River: (11.20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 13.20 BB

Comments?

Fat Nicky

03-10-2005, 02:35 PM

I hate the raise with 3 just limpers. Coming from MP makes this extra bad. Throw one or 2 limpers extra limpers in there, i still hate it from middle position, I don't hate it from late position, but I still don't like it. I'll raise JTs with 4-6 limpers often, sometimes 109s, but 89s is cutting it close, IMO.

Hope i wasn't too confusing...

Bob T.

03-10-2005, 02:43 PM

I think you might have been a seat or two early, and maybe one limper short for a limp from this position.

But, your raise did get you the button, so it wasn't all bad. After you raised preflop, and you caught the flop pretty well, I think that you should have raised the flop. Your preflop raise, made it all the more likely that you were going to get a free card if you wanted it. If you had limped preflop, then I think the call on the flop would be more reasonable.

I agree that two bets is a lot to pay on the turn, and you probably have a feel for what your opponents would bet here, so I don't have a problem with your turn fold.

mr pink

03-10-2005, 02:46 PM

i like a flop raise here. you have bd flush, bd straight outs, middle pair, and you raised preflop. you get a cheap look at the river a good % of the time. also this situation doesn't happen where you fold 2 pair on the turn when you still have outs to a boat. if you'd raised the flop, you would have had the odds to see the river.

chief444

03-10-2005, 02:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you'd raised the flop, you would have had the odds to see the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree about the flop raise. But absolutely not for that reason.

I just limp preflop here too.

pokerstudAA

03-10-2005, 03:02 PM

Reasoning behind the flop raise? I will give it a shot.

1. My pair of eights might be ahead here.

2. Decent drawing hand. I have 2 outs to trips, 3 outs to 2 pr. (which might straighten someone), 4 outs to a straight, and I have the back door flush - 1 out? Discounting the 9's I have about 8 outs here. Does that make this a value raise with 4 players?

3. Free card play. Might get checked to me on the turn. If it is should I bet 2-pr here risking the check raise?

pokerstudAA

03-10-2005, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you might have been a seat or two early, and maybe one limper short for a limp from this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? 3 limpers and 89s in MP3 and you throw it away? It seems the pre-flop situation for 89s cannot get much better....

Bob T.

03-10-2005, 03:55 PM

Well, for this type of hand, I really want the button, and really good pot odds. If I limp, I will get the odds, but I won't get the button, and if I raise, I get the button, but I don't get the odds. It seems like a spot or two later, this hand will play a lot better.

If you want to play here, I don't think that it is a problem at all, but I would probably have waited to a little later.

chief444

03-10-2005, 03:59 PM

Yeah, those are all fairly logical reasons to raise.

I really just wanted to point out to mr pink that raising "so that you have odds to call on a later street" is a concept that creeps up now and then but is incorrect reasoning.

PokerBob

03-10-2005, 04:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

With 3 limpers and the blinds. Easy raise? Might get me a free card, this hand plays good multi-way, and I have nice position. Thoughts on the PFR?

Flop: (10.40 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

So I have a pair, a gutshot, and a back door flush. I thought about raising but decided It would be best to peel one off. I did not think a flop raise would do me any good here. Mabye a raise would get me a free card here also? Thoughts on the flop play?

Turn: (7.20 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 folds, MP2 raises, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls.

MP2 was fairly TP - rockish. I assumed his raise meant he had a 7 - giving me 4 outs to the boat. Getting 10:2 odds to call here. No flush - no nothing. 2 pair no good? How confident are we that MP2 has a 7 here?

River: (11.20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 13.20 BB

Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'd like to see one more limper, but I think the pf raise is ok.

I doubt that a flop raise will buy you a card here, but UTG may 3-bet and blow the middle players out. I really don't know what the correct move is, but either seems OK to me.

Easy fold on the turn.

Sarge85

03-10-2005, 04:06 PM

I don't make the raise here outside of the CO or Button.

I probably raise the flop though, Try for a free card, if i get three bet, it's not the end of the world as i have multiple outs and redraws.

Rest of the hand plays itself.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

bakku

03-10-2005, 04:08 PM

Bob, you saying you fold here makes me want to quit poker. You fold here yet you're able to keep your VPIP above 20, while I call here and can't get my VPIP above 15.5.

Entity

03-10-2005, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bob, you saying you fold here makes me want to quit poker. You fold here yet you're able to keep your VPIP above 20, while I call here and can't get my VPIP above 15.5.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just cuz you're a nit.

But yeah, I agree. There's no way I fold this hand here.

mr pink

03-10-2005, 04:42 PM

chief,

could you elaborate a little bit more on why my reasoning is off? you would raise JTs pf after 6 or so limpers to build a nice pot so if you caught your draw you would have the odds to see the turn and river, free card, etc... i don't understand how raising the flop is different in this situation. i'm confused here /images/graemlins/confused.gif

djoyce003

03-10-2005, 04:57 PM

I don't raise this from MP after 3 or 4 limpers. I might raise on the button with 5 or 6 limpers, but no way do i raise this here. Good fold.

Entity

03-10-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bob, you saying you fold here makes me want to quit poker. You fold here yet you're able to keep your VPIP above 20, while I call here and can't get my VPIP above 15.5.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just cuz you're a nit.

But yeah, I agree. There's no way I fold this hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should make it clear that I meant there's no way I fold the hand PF. The turn fold is good.

Rob

Sarge85

03-10-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
chief,

could you elaborate a little bit more on why my reasoning is off? you would raise JTs pf after 6 or so limpers to build a nice pot so if you caught your draw you would have the odds to see the turn and river, free card, etc... i don't understand how raising the flop is different in this situation. i'm confused here /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not raising to give yourself odds to call future bets, you're raising because JTs figures to win more than it's fair share against 6 limpers - it's a raise strictly for value.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

AngryCola

03-10-2005, 05:10 PM

Limp preflop in that spot.

But I don't mind the raise after the flop.

Bob T.

03-10-2005, 05:17 PM

I didn't exactly say that I would fold. I just said that I would like it more a seat later, or with another limper.

If there was one weak limper, or it was unopened, I would probably come in for a raise. If I was on the button, or CO, I would definately play. Its this middle situation, with a middling number of limpers, that I really am uncomfortable with. I probably play, but I think it's kind of thin, because you aren't going to get the button, because with 4 limpers already, the CO and button will be coming in with a lot of stuff, or you can raise, but then you hurt your implied odds, with a hand that can best be described as an implied odds hand. Further, although you might win slightly more than your fair share, all those limpers, really devalue any one pair hand you might make, because you might be up against, J9, T8, or something like that, so you need at least two pair to win, and once you have two pair, some of those limpers are going to have straight draws. This could be very tough hand to play here postflop, and you have to be pretty accurate after the flop, to get it right.

mr pink

03-10-2005, 05:24 PM

sarge,

but isn't part of the reason you raise in that spot so that you'll have good odds with a hand that usually flops some kind of draw? like a gutshot or bd flush draw, etc... if i'm wrong about this, and i assume i am by the responses... i wanna clear this up right now.

Sarge85

03-10-2005, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sarge,

but isn't part of the reason you raise in that spot so that you'll have good odds with a hand that usually flops some kind of draw? like a gutshot or bd flush draw, etc... if i'm wrong about this, and i assume i am by the responses... i wanna clear this up right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.

Raising to give yourself odds is silly. TOP has like 6 different reasons for raising...giving yourself odds isn't one of them.

However raising for value is.

FWIW, if there were 6 limpers - you'll have all the odds you'll need to continue with a flush or straight draw - and depending how passive palyers are, you'll have implied odds more often than not to peel one off for a gut shot.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

mr pink

03-10-2005, 05:57 PM

ok sarge, thanks man. i must have picked this up somewhere a while back and needless to say haven't been using it right. thanks for the help.

Dick_Stone_777

03-10-2005, 06:05 PM

you need to fold preflop unless you are positive a couple more players will limp.

My natural instinct--which may be wrong--would be to raise the flop i am curious what others think..Probably should read their replies first next time.

BigEndian

03-10-2005, 06:37 PM

I like this raise for the following reasons:

1) Can get you the button.
2) Can build a pot for the normally tight players at the 5/10 to stick around for if you like the flop (and gives you the opportunity to outplay them with your superior postflop skills).
3) If you don't feel the need to autobet the flop.

Flop: I like your call here, you can't protect and the odds are laying you to a proper slice even with tainted outs. With a board like this, a lot of players will usually be hit in some way.

Turn: I fold here as well without a read on MP2 (e.g. he likes to wait until the turn in big pots to get a raise in with his AT).

- Jim