when to fold TT

[therockofgibraltar]

E1 calls - E2 folds - E3 folds - M1 raises - M2 folds - M3 Hero reraise with T /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif - CO folds - B folds - SB caps - E1 calls - M1 calls and I call

FLOP. 4 players
4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB bets - fold - fold - I raise - SB reraises - I call

TURN. 2 pleyrs
3 /images/graemlins/club.gif
bet - I call

River.
7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
bet - i call

[wyoak]

absent of any reads it seems good to me. way ahead or way behind type situation.

[crownjules]

Pretty standard play. SB caps preflop, so you have to think he's got AA-QQ or AK. You beat any board pair, so you should stay in on the chance that SB is being very aggressive with a non-overpair hand.

[btspider]

seems like if you take this flop line, you should be able to fold the turn.

if you can't fold the turn after the flop 3-bet, then just calldown postflop since its HU on the flop when you act.

[parappa]

Yep, this looks just fine.

[therockofgibraltar]

** Dealing down cards **
E1 folds.
E2 raises [$1].
E3 folds.
M1 folds.
M2 HERO raises [$1.5]. with KK
CO folds.
B calls [$1.5].
SB folds.
BB folds.
E2 raises [$1].
M2 HERO calls [$0.5].
B calls [$0.5].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, 3d, 2h ]
E2 bets [$0.5].
M2 HERO raises [$1].
B calls [$1].
E2 raises [$1].
M2 HERO raises [$1].
B calls [$1].
E2 calls [$0.5].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
E2 bets [$1].
M2 HERO calls [$1].
B calls [$1].

** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
E2 bets [$1].
M2 HERO calls [$1].

Surprise surprise, lost to AA

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
E2 bets [$1].
M2 HERO calls [$1].

Surprise surprise, lost to AA

[/ QUOTE ]

not only is the site rigged to make your set lose.. the deck contains two T/images/graemlins/club.gifs..

[parappa]

Yep, this one's good too. And one out of every-so-many hands your opponent will show you AA to your KK, but you'll lose too much profit trying to figure out when.

[callydrias]

[ QUOTE ]
seems like if you take this flop line, you should be able to fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot's pretty big at this point, but I think I still fold the turn.

[bakku]

Those of you who like how he played his hand, why? Calling down after getting 3-bet on the flop is bad poker.

If you're going to raise the flop you gotta fold the turn after you get 3-bet. What hands do you guys think he's beating? If you can't force yourself to fold or don't trust the villain, just call down, make sure just one bet goes in on every street.

[therockofgibraltar]

I definitely don't like the way I played this. SHould think a bit more what other guy is having when playing.... I'm so beat.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely don't like the way I played this. SHould think a bit more what other guy is having when playing.... I'm so beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry about it, as long as you learned something from this hand it's all good. My response was also more intended towards everyone who said calling down after getting 3-bet was good.

[mungpo]

I agree, you need to fold this hand to the turn bet. Having an opponent 3-bet you on the flop should be telling you to do so.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you who like how he played his hand, why? Calling down after getting 3-bet on the flop is bad poker.

If you're going to raise the flop you gotta fold the turn after you get 3-bet. What hands do you guys think he's beating? If you can't force yourself to fold or don't trust the villain, just call down, make sure just one bet goes in on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

(I might learn something here)

So where do you make this decision. SB caps us preflop. We put him on AA-JJ, AK, a frisky AQ, or a bluff, right? Let's not consider 99 for now. He bets into us on the flop. Can we lay it down right there? If we knew he had the bigger pair we could, since we only have .04 chance of winning a 17sb pot, which is less than the small bet we have to call.

On card frequency he's 24/16 to have the bigger pair (ruling out AQ or a bluff). Then it's .6*.04*17=.4 + .4*.87*17=2.43, and our total equity is 2.73. So if we have him equally likely to have AA-JJ, AK, we can call down. We can't fold for one small bet if he might have AK, AQ or be on a flyer.

I don't know what the point of the raise is. (Not saying it's wrong, just that I don't know what the point is). But when it comes back 3-bet, we've gotten information about the chance that he's got AK/AQ/xx. How much has it changed?

They say that you have to figure a lot of things in poker out yourself, but here imo is one example where I simply want someone else to tell me something like "he is extremely unlikely to 3-bet you with crap" or "he might 3-bet you with exactly the same hands that he'd 1-bet you with, especially if he has a weak hand." And I think it's directly related to whether it makes sense to fold here.

So, someone straighten me out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gvibes]

I think most players who would whiff with AK or AQs would bet out the flop, but would not 3-bet. And pp>=JJ would certainly 3-bet. I think the raise is necessary, unless we decide to just fold to any OOP capper who leads out an undercard flop, or just call down. I think either route would be unwise.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
I think most players who would whiff with AK or AQs would bet out the flop, but would not 3-bet. And pp>=JJ would certainly 3-bet. I think the raise is necessary, unless we decide to just fold to any OOP capper who leads out an undercard flop, or just call down. I think either route would be unwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The thing that troubles me with this line is when he calls and checks to us on the turn. I bet. Then either a) he check-raises me and I'm torn about whether to fold b/c I'm obviously beaten or call off the 2BB in the now-large pot. Or b) he calls a bet on the turn, and check-raises me on the river. Or, most irritating but probably cheapest, he calls/calls and shows me AA.

I'm just having trouble figuring out what's best with these possible lines.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
So where do you make this decision. SB caps us preflop. We put him on AA-JJ, AK, a frisky AQ, or a bluff, right? Let's not consider 99 for now. He bets into us on the flop. Can we lay it down right there? If we knew he had the bigger pair we could, since we only have .04 chance of winning a 17sb pot, which is less than the small bet we have to call.

On card frequency he's 24/16 to have the bigger pair (ruling out AQ or a bluff). Then it's .6*.04*17=.4 + .4*.87*17=2.43, and our total equity is 2.73. So if we have him equally likely to have AA-JJ, AK, we can call down. We can't fold for one small bet if he might have AK, AQ or be on a flyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, folding to the villain's initial flop bet would be really bad. He's betting out here with whatever he has since he capped PF. AK/AQ/overpairs are all likely hands based on the PF play. However, if you know for sure he has an overpair I'd call the flop and fold the turn UI. You have the implied odds to peel one off here hoping to turn a set.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what the point of the raise is. (Not saying it's wrong, just that I don't know what the point is). But when it comes back 3-bet, we've gotten information about the chance that he's got AK/AQ/xx. How much has it changed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling down or raising the flop is all about knowing your player. If you're up against someone whose bets and raises can be trusted, I like raising the flop because he'll let you know when you're beat. Once he 3-bets the flop (on this board with this preflop action) you can put him on an overpair and lay down on the turn because you know he's not going to be spewing chips here with a weaker hand. However, if you're up against a LAG or an unknown whose bets and raises can't be trusted, I think calling down is the best play. With the preflop action I'm not liking my hand too much, but I can't fold because I don't trust my opponent enough. Calling down and making sure just one bet goes into the pot on each street ensures that you won't be bluffed out of the pot by a weaker hand like AK and that you're paying the least amount of bets to get to showdown.

[Yobz]

I like capping the flop and folding to a turn bet, anyone else take this line?

[jlpadge21]

If the line is to call all the way down after raising and getting reraised, then why not just call all the way down. This seems best to me for various reasons. If he has a higher PP we see it for 2.5 bets. If, in fact he has AK, villian will either slow down and we can value bet the river, or we will snap him off his bluff for 2.5, assuming no A or K comes (70% of the time). well, in any case, a different perspective.