Does My Flop Raise Have a Point?

[parappa]

Villain is a mouse (14/3/1.8). The autorate rules call this TP-A, but it seems more like TP-P to me, so I don't know.

$1/$2 Hold'em. 9-handed.

Hero is button with K/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif

Folded to CO who limps. Hero raises. Blinds fold. CO calls.

(5.5 SB)Flop 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif

CO bets. Hero raises. CO calls.

I can't remember why I raised here. I think it's because I was on tilt and I can't find a good reason for it, but I want to know if anyone would do this.

(4.25 BB)Turn 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif

CO checks. Hero bets. CO calls.

Regardless of whether the flop bet was right, is this Turn bet now correct? The 9's not really a scare card and hasn't improved my hand.

(6.25 BB) River 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif

CO checks. Hero checks.

I think the correct line on this hand was to call the flop and fold to a turn bet.

[davelin]

Your flop raise looks to be for the free card which you didn't take. The turn card gave you 4 more outs BTW.

[jason1990]

I've taken to calling the mouse "safe tight." He's the kind of player that thinks AK is a "drawing hand," and doesn't want to put money in the pot until he sees the A or K on the flop. If this is the kind of villian in this hand, I would definitely not be raising the flop or betting the turn.

[bozlax]

Free card? You have two backdoor draws, to the 2nd flush and the nut straight. Raise the flop to freeze CO on the turn.

Then, hooray, one of your draws improves on the turn, and now you've got a gutshot to the nuts...just what you wanted. Ok, CO checks and you che...huh? Oh, you were on tilt a little, eh?

Raise the flop to freeze your opponent. If re-raised, seriously consider letting it go (right?). If UI on the turn, check or fold, but unless you get TP you're not in a position to bet out (Villan may be using Brad's call the flop raise to C/R the turn play) (right, again?). The river should be pretty clear, if you get there.

It was still a small pot until you bet the turn, and you're fighting too hard against one opponent.

(As always, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Entity and ShillX will educate both of us.)

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Your flop raise looks to be for the free card which you didn't take. The turn card gave you 4 more outs BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think so too. Is the free-card raise a reasonable play here? Also, is trying to push him off on the turn reasonable?

I now know where this came from--I read HEFAP last week and the turn bet is a misapplied semi-bluff. Villain's not capable of betting the flop with nothing. My hands for that couple of days contain all kinds of mysterious and depressing bets like this.

Anyway, given that Villain's "tight-safe" (I like that description), it seems that the free-card play will probably work on him (it did here), and so it seems obviously preferable to take the free card, especially since his flop bet means that he's got something. The question is whether this is better than folding. Assuming for the moment that he's got top pair, are my 5.5-ish outs (if he's got a ten, he could have one of my cards, so I'd say I've got more than 3 for the overcards plus 1.5 for the bdfd) enough to justify a call here? And if I can call, is this a good spot for the free card trick?

[Grease]

I would raise the flop then gladly take the turn free card. I don't think a turn bet is going to make him fold, and if you bet the river, you're just setting your money on fire. Check the turn.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, CO checks and you che...huh? Oh, you were on tilt a little, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but I didn't think so at the time /images/graemlins/frown.gif Perhaps that's a component of tilt. Usually tilt makes me weak-tight, but that didn't happen here until the next day. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[davelin]

For the most part whenever someone bets (especially into a pfr'er) they have something - piece of the board or pocket pair or strong draw. The OES draws out there aren't likely so it's very likely he has at least a pair and you're drawing.

Giving your read of your opponent, going for the free card play look completely fine.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise the flop then gladly take the turn free card. I don't think a turn bet is going to make him fold, and if you bet the river, you're just setting your money on fire. Check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

turn bet will NOT make him fold, given that turn card. Agreed on the chip dumping part.

[Grease]

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise the flop then gladly take the turn free card. I don't think a turn bet is going to make him fold, and if you bet the river, you're just setting your money on fire. Check the turn.


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turn bet will NOT make him fold, given that turn card. Agreed on the chip dumping part.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I said...

[tiltaholic]

i agree with the other posters so far, and i'd like to add that this is a case where postflop reads are very helpful.

often, depending on the player, this is a probe bet, because they have hit the flop, or have a mid pocket pair and they want to see how you react. here, a flop raise can win you the pot immediately with reasonable frequency. they are aggressive enough to lead certain flops, but passive enough to give up quickly.

when they are more passive or "safe" (great description btw), they'll won't give you the pot right there but they will give you the lead and thus the free card.

either way, i think the flop raise is good here.

on the turn, similarly, if you know villian to be weak, i don't absolutely hate the turn bet. my gut tells me that you'll pick up the pot enough to show a profit, however you when he calls you know you need to improve to win...i'll bet turns like this when i'm getting lots of table respect and showing down repeated monster hands. the weakies fold in a heartbeat. and in the cases where we improve on the river and show down...we get the double bonus of setting off the tight-passive with "you raised me with that?!? wtf!! river rat!!..." and we get future action from the table too. but it's definitely situation and opponent dependant and taking the free card is clearly good against a lack of strong postflop read.