10-9 suited

10-20
open raised UTG 10-9 S

called by mid position and the blinds.

flop 7-6-4 rainbow

bet and called by BB

turn 9-7-6-4 two hearts

bet and called

river K-9-7-6-4 three hearts

BB bets

Fold, call, or raise and why.

Comments on every street would be appreciated.

[eMarkM]

I'd muck T9s UTG unless it was a reeeal passive, no pre flop raise, multiway type of game. And if it was that type of game, I'd limp with this. This hand works best in multiway pots so why scare away potential customers? The only one calling your raise is hands that will likely beat you. You could maybe argue raising this as a variance play, but that's it. If you regularly raise with this type of hand you'll get reraised and isolated a lot and T9s is not going to fair well HU.

[Mike Gallo]

open raised UTG 10-9 S
Comments on every street would be appreciated.


I would never raise UTG with 10 9 suited so I cannot comment for the rest of the hand.

Why did you make such a dubious raise? Just curious.

[J.A.Sucker]

Sounds like a strange game. If it is soooo tight that a raise UTG has a chance of stealing the blinds, then this isn't a terrible raise, it's just thin. Otherwise, fuggedabout it. Limp if it's loose without much raising (often the case if there are limpers up front). Fold in some games, though I haven't seen too many 10-20 games where this isn't a play.

Sounds like MP is a terrible player. Why did he call 2 cold, but then fold on this flop for one bet? Maybe he thinks the blinds will checkraise and squeeze him, but who knows. Anyway, the flop bet is dubious, because your odds of winning right away are small, since you have the blinds calling and the board is coordinated and small, especially considering the poor player in MP. What are you going to do if you bet and are raised (or worse)? Especially if there are others who could squeeze you (if MP calls, then BB raises?). I'd be more inclined to check, hope the MP checks (though if he bets and it's one to you, then you've gotta call), and pray for an 8. If you hit your str8 on the turn (especially if it's checked around on the flop), many times people in the blinds will try to take a hack at the pot, and this can get you paid off nicely, especially since they won't read you for T9. Maybe they'll have a smaller straight or a set - yeehaw.

As it went down, you've got to bet the 9 on the turn. It's unlikely that the dude has a made hand since he just called. There are many overcards that could be bad for you, and many small cards that could be worse, so you've got to bet it.

River: Call and hope you're good. /forums/images/icons/blush.gif I hope you won, but it seems unlikely.

[Ginogino]

Ugh! What a horrible UTG raise pre-flop. 95% of the time, when the flop improves a hand it does so by pairing something. Sure, when it hits, a flush is a wonderful hand. A middling straight, when it hits, is a pretty good hand. But how often do you actually hit a straight or a flush when starting with middling suited connectors? The profit from the times you hit and win big is overwhelmed by the times you hit nothing and the times when you hit a piece of the flop and suck along to lose in a showdown on the river (and times in between those two). Suitedness/connectedness only helps when the straight or flush comes. Other times, its your power cards against those of your opponent.

Here, you were "lucky" that cards lower than 10 didn't fall until the river. Suppose, however, that the flop had come Q high, and then the K hit on the turn. Sure, you've got a gutshot draw, but why pay several bets to get to a gutshot (which isn't the nuts)?

On the river you've got the odds to call, but I wouldn't say you are a probable winner. You've trapped yourself with your open-raise preflop. If you start with middling cards and go to the river with them, about half the time you won't improve. And when you do improve, what you'll mostly improve to is a middling pair. I repeat: Ugh!

[afish]

Preflop: I really think the only reason to raise UTG with 10-9s is if people are folding to all your raises. Since you got three callers, that plainly was not the case. I'd prefer to limp to encourage a cheap volume pot. Also, if the game is relatively loose, this hand is playable up front.

Flop: Here is a spot where your preflop raise hurt. If you had just called before the flop, a flop bet would have a better chance of picking up the pot. That said, a bet with two overcards and a gutshot draw is mandatory to possibly win the pot or to get a hand like Ax to fold.

Turn: You've got a pair and a gutshot draw. Since you'd call a bet, it is better to bet yourself and hope your opponents fold.

River: Clearly a raise is incorrect, since you can't beat any hand that will call a raise, and your opponent won't fold any hand that beats yours.

I'd call, as there's enough chance BB missed a straight draw (he could have had A5s) to make folding incorrect. Most of the time you'll lose, but the pot odds warrant a call.

[Noo Yawk]

Since you didn't mention the game type or the types of players you were against, take my response for what it's worth.
Pre-flop: Limp with 10-9s to encourage multiway action. From UTG you have reasonably good speculative hand for a loose-passive game. Just make sure you believe there is a reasonable chance to get a multiway pot.

Flop: You have a good semi-bluff opportunity with 2 cold-callers. A gutshot to the nut straight and 2 overcards. Just make sure you have an idea what your opponents will cold call a raise with.

Turn: Top pair. Bet.

River: I think your opponent held middle pair and either walked into a backdoor flush, two pair, or he just held 2 overcards that may have hit. If he is a straight forward player, then a fold is not unreasonable. If he is a tricky player, he may be trying to bluff you off the pot. You need to call and pay him off. I don't see this being worth a raise.

[bruce]

Normally with T9s I will limp or fold, but occasionally I will open for a raise. I have no
problem with your open raise, just as long as this is done occasionally. If you get to
showdown your hand it does miracles for your image. I like the way you played the hand
from the flop on. On the river you have to call. First of all you want to be able to showdown
your hand on the river
Secondly, there is a reasonable possibility that your hand is the best.

Bruce

[Dynasty]

I would never raise UTG with 10 9 suited so I cannot comment for the rest of the hand.

Of all the posts which are made on this forum, the worst ones are always those which say something like "I would not do that pre-flop therefore I won't/can't comment on later streets".

Why can't you comment on the rest of the hand?

[bad beetz]

If you play with the same people every day, I might raise T9s UTG one in five hundred times. And then I'd want to bring it to showdown if at all possible for the advertisement.

[mikelow]

Don't be so critical. I wouldn't have raised preflop as well, but I would give it up on the turn.

[Dynasty]

Did you mean that you would fold on the river? On the turn, he has top pair/decent kicker with a gut-shot straight draw.

On the river, it's unlikely T9 is going to be good. But, since it's heads-up, I think you should make the crying call. I think it's much more likely that BB has a King or two-pair rather than a flush.

[mikelow]

Didn't the BB check the turn? I think the BB will call the turn bet anyway, so unless the hand improves, there's no hope.
So I was saying check behind.

Did you really think I was advocating folding to a check?

[Dynasty]

I accidentally equated "give up" to fold.

Why would you check the turn? You are very likely to have the best hand with top pair/good kicker/gut-shot draw. Your bet should get a hand like KQ to fold after they took one off on the flop. You are usually going to get called by gut-shot straight draws as well. You make your money by betting your good hands. You leave chips on the table by checking these hands.

Thanks for all the responses.

Although Sklansky recommends raising one third of the time, I usually raise this maybe 20% of the time. Most people assume I have AA, KK, or AK so I very rarely get called down if an A or K hit the board.

In this particularly hand, the flop didn't look like it helped many, so a bet would likely thin the field a lot. Someone holding top pair, i.e. a 7, or a straight draw might call but would not likely raise. I would fold to a check raise or many take one off to try and gutshot the nuts.

I have top pair with a gutshot and have to bet the turn.

One the river, I raised representing KK or maybe AA or AK, and the bettor folded. I was sure he did not have a flush since he would have checkraised. I thought his most likely hands were a 7, 9 with possible better kicker, or maybe even a K with bad kicker (he was the BB). I didn't really want to know what he had, so I raised.

[Zele]

Well, that river raise was very bold, and it paid off for you, so cheers.

I think the question you have to ask yourself about the pre-flop raise is: does the deceptive value you're gaining justify the reduced EV (versus a call?) Sklansky recommends raising 1/3 of the time to avoid giving away too much information with EP raises. But are your opponents perceptive enough to take advantage of this information if you're giving it? In most 10/20 B&M games I've played in, the answer is no, at least for 80%+ of the players. Online, the players may be more sophisticated, but there is much more turnover at the tables, so your deception may be wasted unless you're using it at a table with players you see often. Remeber, the greater value of the deception comes not in the hand right then, but further down the road when you have AA and attract callers who would have otherwise folded.

[J.A.Sucker]

I think that raising here on the river is just bad poker, especially when considering that the BB probably has more small cards. He bet into you for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. He is bluffing

2. He has AK beat.

If he's doing either of these, then raising accomplishes nothing, while putting you at risk to not show down. He'll just check and call with anything marginal, including a hand like A9, which beats you. With so much out on the board (including the overcard), just be happy to show it down and hope that you win.

[Ed Miller]

Sklansky does not recommend raising T9s 1/3 of the time from UTG. I think you should go back and reread your pre-flop section of HPFAP. He does mention raising occasionally as a variance play with a hand such as this, but in this case, occasionally means like 1% of the time, not 20%.

He could be bluffing with a hand which is actually good, like a 9 with higher kicker. I believe, based on a comment made, that "he had a decent hand which couldn't stand a raise", that he may have had just such a hand. My comment in reply was "I didn't think you had a flush".

My raise may have been bad poker, as was his fold, but at least I gave him the opportunity to make a bad play.

I believe you are wrong, but will recheck the book. I believe he later clarifies ocassionally to mean 1/3 of the time you have the suited connectors.

[J.A.Sucker]

I doubt that he'd bet into you on the end when a card that you're representing hits the board. It's also unlikely that he has a 9, since he didn't get aggressive on the turn. You snapped off a bluff here, IMO, but calling would have done the same thing.

[Zele]

At any rate, I think it is important to realize that, even if players are observing your play for a while, less-than-experts can easily form incorrect impressions of you based on just one or two deliberate deceptions.

[Ed Miller]

You are absolutely correct... he does recommend raising 1/3 of the time from EP with specifically T9s. That seems a bit often, but then he does qualify that by saying in "typical or tough" games. Most games I am accustomed to are pretty loose, and in those games, raising with T9s loses almost all of its value.

I was thinking of the example he gives with 76s where he suggests that you occasionally play it (and sometimes raise with it) as a variation play. That is the sort of play that is, IMHO, a 1% type play.

[mikelow]

Maybe I don't raise enough preflop. I will reread that also.

[astroglide]

i prefer raising more liberally after a modest amount of limpers with hands like j9s, since you're not simply PISSING away value with it. raising suited connectors utg throws away their value. i'd be more inclined to raise, say, 66 utg, because if my raise 'works' i'll be playing 1 player. i don't want that with 9ts.

raising out of the blinds more often also enables you to raise/reraise big hands out of there without flagging your hand.