How much EV is this collusion costing me?

[roy_miami]

OK, here's the story.

There are 2 guys that I play with quite a bit, I know they know each other quite well, they actually hang out together as they are from the same home town. I am friendly with both of them. I believe they may be sharing information about their hands.

I first started getting suspicious when one of them typed a message in the chat box that was intended for an instant messanger (I believe anyway). During the game I rarely see them get involved with each other, they do see flops together but one will almost always give up immediately if the other stays in. Once in a while they will see the flop heads up and one wil fold on the flop to a single bet which is unusual for both of them.

I'm pretty sure they know each others cards, or at least are communicating one has a good hand via phone or IM. Only twice have I seen them go to showdown together, both times they had the exact same hole cards. The first time they both had the nut straight so naturally they both jammed the pot. The second time they both had pocket Aces, this time they jammed it all the way trapping a player. This seemed over aggressive for both of them and it may have indeed been collusion at work.

What it boils down to is I believe they are communicating. I dont believe they are using this knowledge to jam the pot when one has a big hand, but I do believe they are using this information to maybe get out of the way earlier.

So my question is this, how much is this costing me in EV and should I report them?

[ZBTHorton]

SHould you report them? Absolutely.

How much is it costing you? Not all that much. Although in the long run I'm sure it adds up.

[SCfuji]

1) report them
2) use the other that folds on the flop to try and figure out how strong the other is.

[Danenania]

Are they bad players? If so it probably makes the game better if anything EV wise.

[ShortBus]

People like this are just bad for the game. Report then, we're all better off without them.

[olavfo]

Stop playing with them.

olavfo

[Reef]

easy choice >> report them

[flair1239]

I'd report my Mom, if I thought she was colluding. This is a no brainer.

[lozen]

leet me add reporting them only works if the site will do anything. I know pokerstars will ban them and refund money to the players at the table. Pokerroom which i like alot will probaly do nothing as I have never had an e-mail inquiry on anything answered

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
The second time they both had pocket Aces, this time they jammed it all the way trapping a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if any support person will really accecpt this as evidence of collusion.

[mostsmooth]

if you are going to continue playing with these guys, be happy they arent cheating to win a lot of money. they are almost cheating themselves the way you are describing it.

[Beavis68]

I have a player that I play with from time to time, we chat in IM a lot while playing, we do NOT tell each hands. Most of the time we stay out of each others way, because we both know a lot about the others game, so we know a pretty tight range of hands the other person holds.

We also will spontaneously decide we are going to use this to our own advantage by stealing pots from the other, hence crazy ass raising and reraising and then a fold on the turn or river.

He does this more often then I do, especially if I am having a bad night he will try to screw me out of a pot.

[flub]

This is just how good colluders operate. They don't play when the other is in the hand so the other players at the table never get the odds they would normally.

For example if the colluders had AT and A9 on a flop of AJ7 with 2 hearts the guy with A9 would be giving better odds for someone drawing to a flush so he'll fold.

Or they'd never play TT vs QQ.

Or they will never both have draws to the same flush.

By doing these things the other players won't be making as much money on their good hands.

Also colluding this way is nearly impossible to detect.

They would have to jam aces since if one of them folded it would send up a pretty big red flag.

-flub

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]

They would have to jam aces since if one of them folded it would send up a pretty big red flag.

-flub

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, cuz you should NEVER fold aces /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[roy_miami]

Yes, this is exactly the type of colluding that I believe is going on. Is it possible to calculate how much this type of activity costs the other players at the table.

I also agree it would be very difficult to prove, which is one of the reasons I'm not going to report them just yet. I'm not even 100% sure this is what happening, it could be just selective memory. I am keeping an eye on them though.

I am also sure this type of collusion must be running rampant in online poker. Hell, I've even done it myself playing with a buddy at low limit. We weren't doing it to gouge the other players, I just happened to see him and my dad at the same table so I joined for a few orbits. He called me after I joined and would tell me to get out of the hand when he had something good because he didn't want to take my money. To be honest, it didn't really feel like cheating (although I did mention it to him it in fact was, I'm pretty paranoid about not getting banned). We know this stuff is going on and most of the people doing it probably don't even realize they are cheating the rest of the table. So, how much is it costing me?

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
Are they bad players? If so it probably makes the game better if anything EV wise.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they're not too bad. They are both a little too loose preflop and maybe a tad too aggressive (they both have a very similar style).