Bicyclekick vs Schneids, Small Stakes Style

[MEbenhoe]

I played a hand at a 3/6 full table where I thought some plays could be considered somewhat questionable so I went and asked Bicyclekick and Schneids about the hand. They came up with some differing opinions, from that comes this thread.

The Hand:

3/6 full table at party

Folded aroung to laggy player on button who will raise any 2 on a steal raise, and as expected he raises, SB calls(no read), I have Jd5d in BB and call. My thinking was I'm getting 5:1 with a suited hand that i can easily get away from, but if the flop hits me, i can easily get it heads up with mr. lag and take him.

How was the call?

Bicyclekick: I call, he'll pay you off postflop when you make a hand nicely

Schneids: I call, but I'm a lag

Flop comes 3c 5c 3d

SB checks, I bet, laggy raises, SB folds, I 3bet, laggy caps, I call

Both BK and Schneids agree with me that this is standard

Turn is 9d

I bet...

My thinking is that I'm ahead at this point, and if I get raised I call the raise and check call the river if its not a 5 or a diamond.

Was it right to bet out or should I have gone for a checkraise or check-call?

Bicyclekick: yep, looks good
BK: turn gotta bet, checking is no good, I agree only call a raise if he raises

Schneids: I actually check and call
MEbenhoe: really?
Schneids: yes
Schneids: Anything more IMO is excessive
Schneids: You shut the LAG out from doing what he does, and open yourself up to a raise when he ACTUALLY has a hand since you have to call obviously
Schneids: Most LAGS don't cap the flop and raise a turn bet without something

So who's line is better here? Comments?

[NLSoldier]

OMG, it should be the Schneids/Soldier option, I said the same thing!

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
OMG, it should be the Schneids/Soldier option, I said the same thing!

[/ QUOTE ]

he said it first, plus i'm pretty sure you cant edit polls

[Clarkmeister]

Bet the damn turn.

[Moozh]

OMG! I'd just call. You already have him heads up and you know you're going to a showdown. It definitely depends on just HOW laggy the guy will be post-flop.

... Damn! Crossed the C-Meister on this one.

[The Dude]

Clark, you need to make more posts. I think you know why.

[Clarkmeister]

I've been hiding in HUSH lately.

Hey, I did put in 3 consecutive Wednesdays of mass posting in Small Stakes last month.

[The Dude]

I just wanted to see that avatar again.

BTW, checking the turn is ridiculous. Plenty of LAGs will check behind with overcard hands.

[Clarkmeister]

You coming in with the rest of the clowns this weekend?

[The Dude]

Yeah, I'm actually coming out early. I'll be in town tomorrow night about 10pm, planning on playing all through the night. I can't check into my room until Fri morn, so I'll be in the poker room 'till then. You going to be around?

[Clarkmeister]

Fri nite only. Normally I play on Thurs nite too, but my g/f and I have a double-date with Eddie and his g/f.

[The Dude]

There you go covering for Ed again. I don't buy it.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Fri nite only. Normally I play on Thurs nite too, but my g/f and I have a double-date with Eddie and his g/f.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suddenly this thread takes an interesting turn /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Edge34]

Hey,

I'm with Bike on this one...had the turn been the 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif and not the 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I'd have an easier time saying to check and call, but the diamond draw helps a lot.

I couldn't check this turn after going so strong on the flop. Check-raise is no good because that opens you up to another possible 3-bet (or on the other end a check-through), both of which I don't think you want here. Get to the river for one or maybe two bets and take it from there. I don't think it would be impossible for a LAG to cap the flop and raise a turn bet with something like a big Ace (AK or AQ), and I've even seen some do it with things like KQ. Your entire objective was to take it to the LAG when the flop hit you and it did. Bet the turn and see what that gets you.


(This wasn't my best-written response, but I still can't convince myself that either play is a lot better than the other.... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

[The Dude]

See if you can talk Ed into playing some drunken LL poker with us Friday night. He's been hiding in his hole for too long now, it's time he come dump some of that royalty money to us sharks.

BTW, is he finished with his book yet? It's supposed to print this month, right?

[Clarkmeister]

Book's done.

I'll ask him about Friday night, he might be down.

Unfortunately, I'll be playing real poker since I'm giving up my Thursday night session for this double date. Plus, I have plans Sat night and Sunday I'll be watching TV for the NCAA selection show, so it's my only chance to play.

[MEbenhoe]

PM maybe?

[RED_RAIN]

I agree with Schneids. But I don't think either are horrible. I think knowing the player postflop better would make the decision one way.

The chances of us being still in the lead after he caps the flop, are good, not great. Him capping the flop would lead me towards AK, AQ, AJ, perhaps KQ on the worse side but many pockets on the good side for him which put us behind.

I think we also get paid off better when we hit the river compared to when we come out betting the turn and getting called or raised.

I don't see a LAG folding any overcards on the turn. I think if it gets checked or bet on the turn and we just check/call, we can dodge the river enough considering we would have to if he just had overs, and pay 2 bets if we are in fact behind.

At no point am I considering folding, except an Ace on river would really make me think.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
PM maybe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Shush. This thread is lame anyways. Bet the turn. It's not close. Thread over.

Now if you don't mind, Dude and I were having a conversation. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Schneids]

Que backpedaling:

When I play 10/20 6m the LAGS that cap this flop do not check the turn, they bet it. If I bet it they fold. I'm trying to win money not pots, and IMO I win more money by letting them bet. The fact I have a diamond draw too means their 6 outer is very likely a 4-5 outer now so I have even less reason to try to "protect" my hand from overcards by winning the pot now. The basis of my answer (right or wrong, you might still say it's wrong) is from this type of 10/20 LAG.

End backpedaling.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Que backpedaling:

When I play 10/20 6m the LAGS that cap this flop do not check the turn, they bet it. If I bet it they fold. I'm trying to win money not pots, and IMO I win more money by letting them bet. The fact I have a diamond draw too means their 6 outer is very likely a 4-5 outer now so I have even less reason to try to "protect" my hand from overcards by winning the pot now. The basis of my answer (right or wrong, you might still say it's wrong) is from this type of 10/20 LAG.

End backpedaling.

[/ QUOTE ]

[results oriented thinking]
In defense of Schneids line, laggy did actually fold to the turn bet, causing my face to look like this /images/graemlins/shocked.gif
[/results oriented thinking]

[The Dude]

I'd rather him fold to my bet than get a free card with overcards. I think you'll see each about as often.

[Clarkmeister]

I dub this thread "least deserving of more than 3 replies" award winner of the day.

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I dub this thread "least deserving of more than 3 replies" award winner of the day.

[/ QUOTE ]

says the man making his 7th reply to this thread.

P.S. I don't get it, the vote is somehow 50/50 but no one who sides with Schneids is willing to comment on their side? Schneids + 7 dummy accounts?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dub this thread "least deserving of more than 3 replies" award winner of the day.

[/ QUOTE ]

says the man making his 7th reply to this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that only 1 had anything to do with actual advice. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[MEbenhoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dub this thread "least deserving of more than 3 replies" award winner of the day.

[/ QUOTE ]

says the man making his 7th reply to this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that only 1 had anything to do with actual advice. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You've been spending too much time in OOT, although yeah I have been too.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
There you go covering for Ed again. I don't buy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, have Clark tell you the "I Love Nerds" story, trust me, it's flawless.

[The Dude]

Joe, we've managed to miss you the last couple times you were in the LA area. Are you planning on being around anytime soon?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
'll be in town tomorrow night about 10pm, planning on playing all through the night. I can't check into my room until Fri morn, so I'll be in the poker room 'till then.

[/ QUOTE ]

That should smell terrific.

[The Dude]

Hey man, don't piss me off. Your guys' room is in my name. You don't want to be staying at some sh*tty place like Imperial Palace would you?!?!

[MaxPower]

I'm with Schneids. You make more money by checking.