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SomethingClever
03-09-2005, 11:11 PM
In this hand, assume slightly tighter and more competent opponents than typical Party donks. It's on Pokerroom.

Anyone bet the turn? Anyone fold the river?

1/2 6-handed

CO raises, I 3-bet with QQ. SB coldcalls, CO calls.

3 to the flop for 10 SB.

Flop 8, A, 4, two clubs (I have no club).

SB and CO check, I bet, SB calls, CO folds.

Turn: K club.

SB checks, I check behind.

River: 9 diamonds. SB bets, I call.

Thoughts?
jaxUp
03-09-2005, 11:15 PM
I like your line. After you show weakness on the turn, don't fold this river. He will bet with crap a lot.
Entity
03-09-2005, 11:18 PM
You really should be posting these in HUSH.

This hand is fine.

Rob
Shillx
03-09-2005, 11:21 PM
Eh I might bet the turn with 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif's out there. I would hate giving a free card to some random club that managed to find its way to 4th street (something like TT with a /images/graemlins/club.gif for example). Easy fold if you check/raised which is part of the reason why I also like betting. You have no redraws if behind here.

Brad
SomethingClever
03-09-2005, 11:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You really should be posting these in HUSH.

This hand is fine.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno... thought it might be too standard to post there.

But then again, I really have no idea what's standard at this point (-200+ BB /images/graemlins/frown.gif )
A_C_Slater
03-09-2005, 11:42 PM
Bet the turn and fold to a raise.
GrunchCan
03-10-2005, 12:28 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I like your line. After you show weakness on the turn, don't fold this river. He will bet with crap a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure. If you are planning to call 1 bet on the river (which surely will come), why not bet the turn and check behind on the river?
Entity
03-10-2005, 12:31 AM
Don't ask me why, but I missed the crubbiness of the board. I'd bet the turn (fold to a c/r) and check the river unless villain has a potential for trickiness.

Rob
Redd
03-10-2005, 01:33 AM
Quick question regarding the original play: is the only advantage to checking behind on the turn (as opposed to the river) inducing a bluff?

It seems like you pay 1BB either way, but you get fold equity and don't give a free card if you pop the turn. It seems like I just about exclusively go for the turn bet instead of the river bet in situations like this, and I'm wondering what advantages I'm giving up.
GrunchCan
03-10-2005, 01:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
you get fold equity and don't give a free card if you pop the turn. It seems like I just about exclusively go for the turn bet instead of the river bet in situations like this, and I'm wondering what advantages I'm giving up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you pretty much hit the nail right on the head. I'm pretty much checking the turn only when I'm really sure I'm taking the pot down.
Entity
03-10-2005, 01:50 AM
You should be more willing to check the turn against an opponent capable of bluff-checkraising the turn on a board like this, inducing an incorrect fold on your part.

It's a play I'll make against players I know will bet any two cards on the river, but will only call with better hands on the turn. QQ on an AK board isn't a situation where you're normally concerned about free cards in the slightest; the crubbiness of this board changes that.

Rob
SomethingClever
03-10-2005, 02:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You should be more willing to check the turn against an opponent capable of bluff-checkraising the turn on a board like this, inducing an incorrect fold on your part.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the thing. I do want to see a showdown with this hand, don't I? For one bet, not two or possibly three.

Instead of having to fold to the turn checkraise, I pay the same amount but see showdown.

I'm not too concerned about fold equity on the turn, because I'm pretty much ahead or behind. Club draw won't fold; neither will an A. I want worse hands to call or bluff the river.
Shillx
03-10-2005, 03:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should be more willing to check the turn against an opponent capable of bluff-checkraising the turn on a board like this, inducing an incorrect fold on your part.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the thing. I do want to see a showdown with this hand, don't I? For one bet, not two or possibly three.

Instead of having to fold to the turn checkraise, I pay the same amount but see showdown.

I'm not too concerned about fold equity on the turn, because I'm pretty much ahead or behind. Club draw won't fold; neither will an A. I want worse hands to call or bluff the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you way ahead/behind when he would have 11 outs against you with a hand like TT?

It is not so much that you are getting a /images/graemlins/club.gif to fold, it is that you make money by him putting money into the pot with just 9 outs. If he is 20% to win, your EV in this spot is + .6 BB. This isn't insignificant, even if you know that he would never fold a flush draw.

Brad