ATo from EP

[BiffMan]

Mostly interested in opinions on the turn play, but please provide any other feedback. Table as a whole is pretty loose (45%), but both MP2 and button are pretty tight with decent post flop aggression (button: 26/0/1.3 f/30 hands, MP2: 11/6/1.6 f/80 hands) so the flop play freaked me out a bit and had me unsure what to do at the turn...

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, MP3 folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (13.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero???

[tytygoodnuts]

You gotta check-raise the flop man.
With your read I would probably fold the turn.

[milesdyson]

I fold it preflop. If I saw the flop, I'm check raising.

Anyway, the turn is a super easy fold. You're drawing dead to an MP2 set extremely often.

[LoaferGee12]

Not only does Button have you crushed but MP2 does as well. Fold turn. Oh ya, fold preflop. Edit: I guess in a loose-passive game here it's playable.

[Shillx]

Your preflop call is fine. You should be able to turn a profit with this hand in this type of game. It might not be playable in a tougher, more aggressive game but it certainly is playable here. If AJo is a raising hand UTG, how much worse can ATo be? Certainly not enough to make it -EV.

Brad

[Chris Daddy Cool]

my word.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Your preflop call is fine. You should be able to turn a profit with this hand in this type of game. It might not be playable in a tougher, more aggressive game but it certainly is playable here. If AJo is a raising hand UTG, how much worse can ATo be? Certainly not enough to make it -EV.

Brad

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I agree, but what type of game do you think suits ATo in this position?

[vulturesrow]

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Your preflop call is fine. You should be able to turn a profit with this hand in this type of game. It might not be playable in a tougher, more aggressive game but it certainly is playable here. If AJo is a raising hand UTG, how much worse can ATo be? Certainly not enough to make it -EV.

Brad

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I agree, but what type of game do you think suits ATo in this position?

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Games like the PP .50/1.00 /images/graemlins/smile.gif Games where, many times, you will be dominating another hand with your ten kicker, rather than the other way around. Games with too much limping, people that play raised pots with absolute junk.

[sin808]

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I fold it preflop. If I saw the flop, I'm check raising.

Anyway, the turn is a super easy fold. You're drawing dead to an MP2 set extremely often.

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[GrunchCan]

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Your preflop call is fine. You should be able to turn a profit with this hand in this type of game. It might not be playable in a tougher, more aggressive game but it certainly is playable here. If AJo is a raising hand UTG, how much worse can ATo be? Certainly not enough to make it -EV.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Hate to disagree with you, Shill. Especially after all the schooling you've given me at HU.

But I think the PF openlimp is terrible. There's just no excuse for openlimping with ATo. Raise. Or raise not. There is no openlimp.

[vulturesrow]

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[ QUOTE ]
Your preflop call is fine. You should be able to turn a profit with this hand in this type of game. It might not be playable in a tougher, more aggressive game but it certainly is playable here. If AJo is a raising hand UTG, how much worse can ATo be? Certainly not enough to make it -EV.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Hate to disagree with you, Shill. Especially after all the schooling you've given me at HU.

But I think the PF openlimp is terrible. There's just no excuse for openlimping with ATo. Raise. Or raise not. There is no openlimp.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mostly agree with your posts, but not this one. I agree if Im first in from MP or later, Im raising it up with ATo. I'll limp though from EP at a loose-passive table. I understand your rationale for wanting to open raise this hand, but frankly I dont see the EV between raising and limping from EP at a Party .5/1 table to be very different.

[GrunchCan]

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I dont see the EV between raising and limping from EP at a Party .5/1 table to be very different.

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Is this b/c you think the .5/1 opponents are just as likely to call 2 cold as 1?

[BiffMan]

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But I think the PF openlimp is terrible. There's just no excuse for openlimping with ATo. Raise. Or raise not. There is no openlimp.

[/ QUOTE ]

So perhaps I'm following the SSHE loose starting hands too closely there? ATo is listed as a call from early position there (actually it's listed as a call from all positions for one bet) and since this table was at least moderately loose, it seemed worth a go. Small sample size, but showing a +.09BB/100 with it from EP through 104 times. So even at $.5/1 Party, that's not something I should be playing?

Agreed with everyone that a check-raise on the flop would have been the obvious move and no idea why I didn't. If the pot's large and I'm looking to protect my hand and there's a preflop aggressor behind me, I almost always go for the check-raise since betting out won't protect my hand, but guess I'll just have to chalk this one up to 4-tabling while watching TV...

[vulturesrow]

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I dont see the EV between raising and limping from EP at a Party .5/1 table to be very different.

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Is this b/c you think the .5/1 opponents are just as likely to call 2 cold as 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

More or less. As a 2+2er I am going to give more credit toa guy who raises from EP vice CO/Button. Typical Party fish dont care. They look at their cards and start the familiar flop to river romances. Obviously it does depend on the table texture but you know that.

[GrunchCan]

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So perhaps I'm following the SSHE loose starting hands too closely there?

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No, but you have to realize that there's a difference between opening the pot and limping behind. When you are the first to enter a pot PF, you generally want to come in for a raise.

Ed discusses this in the PF section, I believe.

[BiffMan]

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So perhaps I'm following the SSHE loose starting hands too closely there?

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No, but you have to realize that there's a difference between opening the pot and limping behind. When you are the first to enter a pot PF, you generally want to come in for a raise.

Ed discusses this in the PF section, I believe.

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Would appear that I have a fundamental misunderstanding of preflop play from early position then. I understand coming in for a raise more often than not if you're the first to enter from MP2-3 or LP, but I'll need to go back and study yet some more.

So is there a cutoff to what you'd raise from UTG+1 if you're the first to enter, or would you do that with anything you'd otherwise be calling with? Say with 77 or A3s or T9s that I'd normally limp with from anywhere in EP, should I be coming in for a raise with those instead? Or would the raises be more for the hands that you'd like to play against as few people as possible like AT or KJ?

Appreciate the feedback from everyone... Only been at this for 3 months and about 35K hands, so still *plenty* of learning yet to do...

[istewart]

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So perhaps I'm following the SSHE loose starting hands too closely there?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but you have to realize that there's a difference between opening the pot and limping behind. When you are the first to enter a pot PF, you generally want to come in for a raise.

Ed discusses this in the PF section, I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would appear that I have a fundamental misunderstanding of preflop play from early position then. I understand coming in for a raise more often than not if you're the first to enter from MP2-3 or LP, but I'll need to go back and study yet some more.

So is there a cutoff to what you'd raise from UTG+1 if you're the first to enter, or would you do that with anything you'd otherwise be calling with? Say with 77 or A3s or T9s that I'd normally limp with from anywhere in EP, should I be coming in for a raise with those instead? Or would the raises be more for the hands that you'd like to play against as few people as possible like AT or KJ?

Appreciate the feedback from everyone... Only been at this for 3 months and about 35K hands, so still *plenty* of learning yet to do...

[/ QUOTE ]

GrunchCan, come back!

I'd like someone to answer these concerns, as I'm generally a bit lost when it comes to this stuff as well.

[BiffMan]

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So perhaps I'm following the SSHE loose starting hands too closely there?

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No, but you have to realize that there's a difference between opening the pot and limping behind. When you are the first to enter a pot PF, you generally want to come in for a raise.

Ed discusses this in the PF section, I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I went and re-read the Ed's PF section and it looks like I'm having the same reading comprehension issues I had the first few times I read the book. I understand that from MP on that I'd want to tend to raise AT if I'm going to be the first into the pot (pgs 90-91), but I must be missing the part where he discusses doing so from early position, hence my confusion.

The part that had previously stood out in my mind was on pg 51: "The best top pair hands -- Ace-ten, king-jack, and better -- tend to benefit more from the extra money than they lose from multiway action." That coupled with the loose starting chart had me thinking that I didn't want to drive people out by raising from EP. Naturally that'd be a different case if it was MP or later and I had a chance to make it a 2-3way hand, but I'm now thoroughly confused as to how to handle ATo from EP... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Also while on the subject, Ed doesn't differentiate between UTG and other early positions in the chart, so in a typical 40-50% .5/1 Party table, should I be tightening up beyond Ed's loose starting guidelines? I'd been treating the marginal big card holdings like AT or KJ as either a limp or fold situation from EP depending on how loose the table was, but raising with them had never really entered my mind, so I'd love to explore that further if anyone has a spare moment.

[caggin]

I think the reason to open raise w/ ATo is to reduce the field: ATo does better with fewer opponents. At Party .5/1, this doesn't always work so well since people are willing to cold call with anything. However, they are cold calling with ANYTHING, often including hands that AT dominates, so, as you quoted SSHE: ATo tends to benefit more from the extra money than they lose from multiway action. It's not that you WANT multiway action, it's that even if it is multiway, you're still getting the best of it. So you're raising to reduce the number of opponents, but if it's multiway, that's ok too.

I see that SSHE recommends limping w/ ATo and AJo in EP. I don't think I understand the reasoning behind this. Maybe it's something like, if you raise, the hands that call are more likely to dominate you? Perhaps you want to see what happens behind you? If no one raises, you can be fairly certain that you aren't dominated, and if someone raises you know who to be wary of and can release your hand more easily if it looks like you're beat. I dunno. Anyone got some arguments for limping ATo or AJo from EP?

[istewart]

I think SSHE recommends limping with it in EP in "loose" games (6-8) to a flop, which is generally not how you would classify these games; still, it can still be a profitable limp. I believe it's best to either be &lt;3-handed with AT or just have the whole table come in with you.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
my word.

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