Post flop play #2

[Phil Van Sexton]

5th hand of a 30/3. The villian called once earlier, then folded to a pre-flop raise. Otherwise, no read.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)
Hero (t830)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t705)
Button (t735)
SB (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t785)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls t80, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

Flop: (t185) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t80</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>

[adanthar]

You did this solely because of the bet amount, right?

Not a play I generally make in the 30's but I have in the 50's. I think you can get away with it here with a slightly better read than what you have but I don't horribly mind.

[1C5]

Very interesting play, I don't know if it is good or right but it is interesting. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Travis]

You know I really like the play. You're 90% sure he doesn't have the ace and is "raising to get information." You give him that information. The problem I have with the play at the Stars $20+2's is that the guy goes ahead and calls you with his JJ or whatever he has. Always getting myself into trouble with this sort of thing at the $20+2. Hopefully it works better at the Party $30+3.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
5th hand of a 30/3. The villian called once earlier, then folded to a pre-flop raise. Otherwise, no read.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)
Hero (t830)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t705)
Button (t735)
SB (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t785)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls t80, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

Flop: (t185) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t80</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

This whole play is negative $EV at the $33's, starting with the preflop call.

At the $55's I'd do it against a player I knew well.

At the $109's I'd do it against a player I thought was to LAGy for his own good. At that level I prefer to give those players a speed bump before the blinds matter.

If you are going to do it, the raise amount is perfect.

Irieguy

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5th hand of a 30/3. The villian called once earlier, then folded to a pre-flop raise. Otherwise, no read.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)
Hero (t830)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t705)
Button (t735)
SB (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t785)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls t80, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

Flop: (t185) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t80</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

This whole play is negative $EV at the $33's, starting with the preflop call.

At the $55's I'd do it against a player I knew well.

At the $109's I'd do it against a player I thought was to LAGy for his own good. At that level I prefer to give those players a speed bump before the blinds matter.

If you are going to do it, the raise amount is perfect.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

perfectly analyzed.

[curtains]

I don't like the preflop call at all. Determining whether its okay at a $50 or $100 tournament doesn't make much sense, because the stack sizes would be different.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the preflop call at all. Determining whether its okay at a $50 or $100 tournament doesn't make much sense, because the stack sizes would be different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on... the stack ratios could be the same.

If I'm playing a $55 and my note on UTG says: "likes to make probing preflop raises from EP, habitually bets the flop and folds to heat..." then I'm sure you can see why you might play this situation.

But that player doesn't really exist at the $33 level. At the $33 level, the note would say: "likes to make probing preflop raises from EP, habitually bets the flop and will then call pretty much any raise no matter what..."

Irieguy

[curtains]

A raise to 80 with 10-15 blinds isn't a probing preflop bet. I don't like calling with 800 chips here with so many players left to act after someone raises to 5-6x the Big Blind.

I don't think it's terrible to call, but I don't really like it.

[TheAmp]

The most valuable "read" we have here is the $33 buy in.

Why are you putting any chips in after a raise with 88, when you can expect to be called later with big hands?

Your play MIGHT be debatable versus tough opponents in higher buy-ins with specific reads (I would still fold pre flop). IMO, Re-raising a bet with three overcards (including an ace) to a post flop raiser is not a smart play. It is outsmarting yourself.

Losing this hand would have gained you +EV in the long run.

S.J.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, Re-raising a bet with three overcards (including an ace) to a post flop raiser is not a smart play. It is outsmarting yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm betting 200 to win 265 that he doesn't have an ace. His bet on the flop tells me that he doesn't have an ace.

I bet, he folded and claimed to have JJ. What's the point of having position if you just ignore the information your opponent gives you?

I'll admit that the pre-flop call was borderline, and investing 25% of my stack with no read was questionable.

I'm not posting these hands because I'm sure I played them correctly. In fact, I knew I played the KT hand wrong. This hand, I'm not sure.

[TheAmp]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm betting 200 to win 265 that he doesn't have an ace. His bet on the flop tells me that he doesn't have an ace.


[/ QUOTE ]

1) As Irieguy mentioned, You are likely to be called with middle or bottom pairs in 33$ buy-ins.

2) His bet doesn't tell you he doesn't have an ace. He might be trying to build a pot or provoke action.

3) My point is you don't have to make these plays with weak players. You are better off waiting for a better chance. I try to punish the fish by betting hands with 80% winning chances (or more). They WILL call.

4) If these kind of plays work for you, fine. I was only offering friendly advice.

Good luck to you,
S.J.

[Unparagoned]

If he bets 125 chips on the flop, are you folding this hand?

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
If he bets 125 chips on the flop, are you folding this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[microbet]

I do this kind of raise (you don't look like you have it, so I bet you don't) if I have a read that villian isn't allergic to folding and it seems to work often enough to be profitable in the $11s and $22s, but you probably do it a lot more (prob a lot lot more because you probably play more often).

Is that bet clearly working for you?

I've mentioned this before, but this kind of snapping off a weak bet is pretty easy to read and if I see someone doing this I will definately lead into them with a weak bet and then reraise. I think a weak bet is more enticing to an aggressive player than a check.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he bets 125 chips on the flop, are you folding this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

[/ QUOTE ]

what if he bet's ~1/2pot on the flop (ie: 100chips).

and what if he checked on the flop?

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Is that bet clearly working for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't do it that often, so my sample size is way too small to answer this. There's just not that much chance to do this is SnG. The pot has to be big, but not so big as to make it impossible to raise less than all in.

I will do it more in a side game. My normal tournament game is pretty boring.

It is much more common to be on the other side. ie. You have KK-JJ and an ace flops. I will almost always bet out 2/3-3/4 pot on the flop anyway. There is a good chance that a pocket pair called your pre-flop raise, and doesn't like the Ace either.

[Unarmed]

I like it a lot more if the board is two flush, although the 10-9 is often drawy (is that a word?) enough that top pair may feel obligated to bet closer to the pot.

EDIT: Also, I think you do a great job here in determining what the Villain has, but perhaps not so great a job disguising your own holding. After your raise what does villain put you on? (if he even thinks about it) If you did have the ace and put villain squarely on a lower PP would you raise here or try to milk him for more on the turn? Regardless of what you would do, what would the typical opponent do (from Villain's perspective, assuming he has no reads on you)

Anyway, well played. I just think that your raise defines your hand more than Villain's flop lead (which could have been a big ace trying to extract the max from a weaker ace and not fearing the potential OESD)

[willie]

fold preflop camp

80 raises w/ 800 chip count.... level 1.

indicative of. AA KK QQ possibly JJ, AK.

you're ahead of one of these and slightly behind the other. Until the Ace flop


pass on this preflop and wait for a situation where you're doing the raising as opposed to the calling.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
what if he bet's ~1/2pot on the flop (ie: 100chips).

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold. I'd still suspect weakness, but I wouldn't be quite as sure. More importantly, I'd probably have to raise to 250-300 to win 285. That's pretty expensive.

[ QUOTE ]
and what if he checked on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably fire out 150. I'd be a bit concerned that he's checkraising with AK, but I think betting 150 to win 185 is worth it. I doubt he's slowplaying 50% of the time he checks here.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Also, I think you do a great job here in determining what the Villain has, but perhaps not so great a job disguising your own holding. After your raise what does villain put you on? (if he even thinks about it) If you did have the ace and put villain squarely on a lower PP would you raise here or try to milk him for more on the turn? Regardless of what you would do, what would the typical opponent do (from Villain's perspective, assuming he has no reads on you)

Anyway, well played. I just think that your raise defines your hand more than Villain's flop lead (which could have been a big ace trying to extract the max from a weaker ace and not fearing the potential OESD)

[/ QUOTE ]

As little as a couple of months ago, though, if I, a moderate to good a player and a $33/55 quad tabler, raised in this spot, my typical hand was AQs or better. I could certainly play AK that way.

Of course, the other part of this is that if you have JJ (and gave away your hand that badly) you can't possibly call the raise even if the chance of 88 is as high as 65%. Do you see why?

[swarm]

Hmmm... I don't like this play at all.

1st off on the pre-flop:

The only way I play this hand pre-flop for an $80 raise is if I am on the button or in the blinds and there are at 2 callers. Then I will play for set value only because of implied odds. Don't hit my set i'm folding. With your call way to great of chance for a re-raise with 5 players remaining.

The actual play itself. If i'm heads up with a caller with AK (likely holding with opening 80 raise) and I hit my A in early position with this flop I am going to make a bet very close to what villan made. I never want to give a true free card for obvious reasons and check-raising is just plain obvious. I'm not going to fear a straight draw heads up. So I want to make a bet that will induce either probe raises by mid pairs such as JJ - QQ re-raise or a lower kicked A re-raise.

At the 33 level and above I expect much tricker plays than open blasting of non-flush drawed flops with AK. Hell I may even play this way with AK on a 2flush flop HU.

I think you got lucky with this play... More times than not you are going to be out 280 chips 5 hands into a SNG.

[curtains]

Of course you can call the raise if the chance of 88 is 65%! This is especially true if the other 35% doesnt mean you have an ace.

If there really is a 65% chance the opponent has 88, it's clear you should again reraise. I'm not really sure what the point was there... (Of course it's nearly impossible to know that your opponent will have 88 65% of the time)

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
If there really is a 65% chance the opponent has 88, it's clear you should again reraise. I'm not really sure what the point was there... (Of course it's nearly impossible to know that your opponent will have 88 65% of the time)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you reraise or call, you get 0 chips from 88 and lose your stack from an ace. (Whether I have 88 or AK there, I check behind on the turn. Enjoy figuring out what to do on the river after you check and I push; if you bet anything substantial you are bleeding a ton of chips.) See the problem?

[curtains]

I don't have to reraise allin.

[adanthar]

Even min 3 betting on that flop is 240 chips. At that point you've basically lost the SNG or at least crippled yourself past easy recovery 1 in 3 times.

I can see your point but I'd much rather let it go in the first place, even with a high chance of bluffing (but you're right about 65% - 50% is still not enough, though.)