Republicans who want war, but won't enlist.

[QuadsOverQuads]

I'd like an honest answer from our resident GOP spammers :

Given that you're so gung-ho for the invasion and occupation of Iraq (and Iran, and Syria, and God-knows-how-many beyond that), I seriously want to know why you are spending your time playing poker and posting on this message board, rather than enlisting to serve in your allegedly Great And Moral Cause?

Do you believe that this is TRULY a great and moral cause, or does your rhetoric somehow fall short when it comes to putting your OWN ass on the line?

And if you DO believe your own rhetoric, then I seriously want to know why you're here, instead of over there.

Why haven't you signed up yet?

Do you intend to sign up in the future?

If so, when?

And if not, why not?

I'd honestly like to hear your answers to these questions.

Over 1500 American soldiers have died because of your lust for war. Over ten thousand have suffered severe injury. Many times that number have been put into harm's way, and yet here you sit, spamming the internet from the comfort of your living rooms while someone else does the fighting and bleeding and dying for you. I want to know why you aren't willing to stand among them. I want to know why you aren't already standing among them. And I suspect many of our soldiers are wondering the same thing, too.

I await your explanations.


q/q

[zaxx19]

No bc I like poor white trash to do my fighting along with hispanics and poor black kids.......

Oh wait Im just like the let wing 1960's era hippies. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Ive already said I believe there should be a mandatory 2 yr national service period for ALL American youth 17/8-19 or 20 yrs old. One of the options would be serving in the military. I probably wouldnt serve bc I have chronic problems with a fallen arch and shinsplints making jogging(consequently boot camp) really quite impossible.

[vulturesrow]

This post is one of the more asinine I've seen in a while. However I will say something about this overwrought attempt to "expose hypocrisy".

June of this year will mark my 7th year of military service. I particularly would like to address this particular line in your post.

And I suspect many of our soldiers are wondering the same thing, too.

Your suspicions are wrong. Most soldiers are too busy doing their job to worry about them motivation of those back home. We appreciate those that support us, dont pay much attention to those that dont. And we understand the need for civilian control of the military, which at least tangentially, you are making a case against.

Its funny how many liberals love to accuse conservatives of being close minded, say we dont like diversity, and yet you march in virtual lockstep here on this board, leveling the same tired criticisms, flailing about with the same rusty hyperbole that I've seen time and again. You never take the time to look at conservative views with fresh eyes, something in my opinion that the conservatives on this board as a whole are more willing to do then the libs.

FWIW, I was a registered Democrat when I got my officer's commission.

[MMMMMM]

...and who won't produce them.

People who want to see animals treated humanely, but who won't work in an animal shelter...people who like clean highways, but who don't go out picking up litter on Sundays...

Now, which post is stupider, yours or mine--or does it matter?

If you want to be a soldier, enlist and be a professional soldier. If you don't, don't. Choose something else to do professionally. Not too complicated really.

[Dead]

Your post is flawed.

Do you see why?

[Dead]

Don't you know that we're on a mission from God? We have to make Iraq a democracy and I'm going to do my part by going outside and sticking that support the troops sticker on my SUV.

Stupid liberal.

[MMMMMM]

No, why?

[QuadsOverQuads]

So: you're career military, a commissioned officer, and (given the timestamp on your post) you don't appear to be operating on Iraqi time right now.

So, this begs the question: have you requested a transfer to duty in Iraq?

If so, what was the response?

And if not, why not?

Do you intend to do so in the future?

If so, when?

And if not, why not?

Also, for the record: I have several commissioned officers in my immediate family. They know as well as you do that Bush's support among the officers is FAR higher than his support among the general troop population. Of course, your average soldier doing occupation duty in Iraq right now doesn't have unfettered access to the internet, nor the time to surf poker forums trying to pump up the GOP. Funny, that.


q/q

[Dead]

Soldiers dont have a real choice. They must go to Iraq. They can't quit the military.

And they are putting their lives in incredible danger. Lots will die. None of the other jobs you mentioned require this sacrifice.

[Dead]

Stop being treasonous. The world would be better off without liberals.

[QuadsOverQuads]

So I've been told /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Funny thing is, the guy who says it is usually some fat-ass guy in his 40's who thinks he's done his duty because he put a sticker on his car. Oh, and he wants the military to handle getting rid of me, too (just as soon as they've handled all the rest of his power-fantasies for him). Funny how they think a Bush-Cheney bumper sticker suddenly turns the military into their own personal army of "gofers".


q/q

[Dead]

Don't worry.

Jesus loves liberals.

He was a liberal himself.

All these conservatives are in for a rude awakening in the afterlife.

An afterlife conversation might go something like this.

Jesus: How much did you give to charity, jaxmike?
Jaxmike: Uh... none. I also voted Republican because I wanted poor people to understand the concept of "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY".

Jesus: Why did you vote for a candidate who cut hundreds of thousands of people off the health care rolls, jaxmike?

Jaxmike:Uh... personal responsibility.

Jesus then presses the Hell button on his chair.

Feel free to substitute Zaxx's or natedogg's name in for Jaxmike.

[QuadsOverQuads]

And as he's on the way down, the last words he'll hear are: "In as much as you did it unto the least of these, my brethren, you did it unto me."


q/q

[lastchance]

This is a stupid thread.

I should not have opened this up, and it is not even close.

Do you see why?

[Warchant88]

I'm not even joking here. Do you honestly believe that Dead? I am actually pretty moderate, whether you believe it or not. I found your Rush comment to me earlier quite funny. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yea, this wasn't a good thread idea. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Dead]

Jesus knows that how we treat "the least" of our day is how we would have treated Him had we met him face to face. He was a working class man, a carpenter.

I have such disdain for those Republicans who use his name in justification for killing Iraqi children and other atrocities.

[Dead]

Believe what?

[Warchant88]

Most Republicans aren't on that whole mission from God perspective. Just the ones you see on TV. Yes, I am Christian, but it is not our "Biblical duty," to free Iraq.

Sorry, about Republicans going to hell.

[Dead]

Also, many Republicans see Jesus as a white anglo Saxon. He wouldn't be. That's what they want to see. In all reality, Jesus would probably look like a modern day Palestinian.

[Dead]

Our PRESIDENT thinks hes on a mission from God to free the Iraqis. He's [censored] delusional.

That said, I do believe what I stated above.

[Warchant88]

You're putting words, or images I guess in this case, into our mouths. You fail to realize that most Republicans are not "missionaries."

[Warchant88]

So, if I live my life as a Christian, and do good deeds and live my life to the fullest, I will go to hell because I am a Republican? That's what you're saying, really.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I live my life as a Christian, and do good deeds and live my life to the fullest, I will go to hell because I am a Republican? That's what you're saying, really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good deeds includes supporting good people. Good people take care of the less fortunate. They don't support cutting poor people from Medicaid. That's a BAD deed.

[Warchant88]

OK. I've worked at homeless shelters, and at nursery homes. I do not have any control over Medicaid, so I am doing the most I can do as of now.

[Dead]

Republicans and Liebertarians want to cut Medicaid. Jesus hates them.

Democrats want to maintain Medicaid. Jesus loves them.

It's very simple, see.

Once you reach voting age, vote Democratic.

And I don't believe that you've worked at homeless shelters. They don't normally hire young kids.

[Warchant88]

Community service. I think it would be ridiculous to get paid to work at a homeless shelter as a teenager. My school runs all kinds of things for homeless people. Especially after the hurricanes. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I have also helped out at my local hospital, doing a variety of work.

Oh, and Jesus doesn't hate anyone. That is a joke.

[thatpfunk]

you are pretty feisty today.

[Warchant88]

Today? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Dead]

I'm on a mission from God.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Soldiers dont have a real choice. They must go to Iraq. They can't quit the military.

And they are putting their lives in incredible danger. Lots will die. None of the other jobs you mentioned require this sacrifice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Firefighters put their lives at risk too, as do various other professions.

If you can't take the heat, don't sign up to be a brick oven pizza cook. If you don't want to perhaps risk your life in combat, don't volunteer to be soldier. It's not as complicated as you're making it, and q/q's post certainly was ridiculous.

[Dead]

Q/Q's post was enlightening and a joy to read. It was total pwnage.

I'll let others elaborate.

[InchoateHand]

You finally snapped, and it makes me happy. Your snap is much funnier than mine, which resulted in a self-imposed exile from the ignorant wasteland of Politics a la 2+2.

Keep it up. Jesus would be really happy with you, and says hello.

[Dead]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

[InchoateHand]

No, I'm absolutely serious. On election night I got a little bit pity-drunk and knocked off about 300 posts in eight hours. You are approaching that now, and you share an similar orientation to the morons that people this wing of the forum.

I wasn't serious about Jesus saying hi---he's actually a bit of a standoffish guy for a flaming anarcho-communist.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]

So: you're career military, a commissioned officer, and (given the timestamp on your post) you don't appear to be operating on Iraqi time right now.

So, this begs the question: have you requested a transfer to duty in Iraq?

If so, what was the response?

And if not, why not?

Do you intend to do so in the future?

If so, when?

And if not, why not?

Also, for the record: I have several commissioned officers in my immediate family. They know as well as you do that Bush's support among the officers is FAR higher than his support among the general troop population. Of course, your average soldier doing occupation duty in Iraq right now doesn't have unfettered access to the internet, nor the time to surf poker forums trying to pump up the GOP. Funny, that.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

I spent two carrier deployments flying missions in that theatre. One deployment was flying missions over Afghanistan. The other was flying missions over Iraq. I find your grilling of me rather distateful but typical of the lemming like liberal behavior I see in here so often. I think you need to go find some statistics because I dont think the support for Bush among officers is significantly higher than among enlisted personnel. At any rate, that has no applicability to this discussion. Surely you arent suggesting that because I have a commission I have no idea what the people that work for me think about politics?

M already pointed out the flaw with your premise, so there isnt much more for me to say.

[Dead]

I guess you're a Republican.

[InchoateHand]

Wow. I'm a pretty caustic [censored], but I was serious. When I'm sarcastic its somehow different. That's the worst thing I have been called in a very, very long time.

[Dead]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[QuadsOverQuads]

[ QUOTE ]
I spent two carrier deployments flying missions in that theatre. One deployment was flying missions over Afghanistan. The other was flying missions over Iraq. I find your grilling of me rather distateful but typical of the lemming like liberal behavior I see in here so often. I think you need to go find some statistics because I dont think the support for Bush among officers is significantly higher than among enlisted personnel. At any rate, that has no applicability to this discussion. Surely you arent suggesting that because I have a commission I have no idea what the people that work for me think about politics?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I'm a "lemming like liberal", seeing as I'm actually an ex-Republican (which would have come up earlier, except that for all the back-and-forth here nobody has even bothered to ask). But I'll let that go for the moment, since I'm sure that all "liberals" must be "lemming-like" in that special fantasy world of Rush Limbaugh and Fox News. Whatever. On to things of actual relevence.

You state that you have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm actually glad to hear that, since it's only the second straight answer to my original question that I've gotten so far (and to your credit, you didn't claim "fallen arches").

If you find my response "distasteful", well, I guess that's just what political discourse in this country has come to. Republicans lie and dodge and do just about anything to avoid giving a straight answer to a simple question like this, and I've become very accustomed to them doing it, so I'm going to keep pushing until I get one. If that pushing seems uncivil, well, that's life. I'd prefer a more civil mode, but it's like a lawyer who's faced with a "hostile witness" : he quickly learns that civility is a luxury, whereas the pursuit of truth is not.

Regardless, I still find it interesting that the only current Republican who actually has put their money where there mouth is on the Iraq issue is an ex-Dem who originally enlisted as a Dem. I just keep wondering where all the Republican enlistees are. From what I'm hearing, military recruiters are wondering that same thing, too, because just about every branch of the service is coming up short (apparantly, all those Young Republicans out there who love to scream at "evil liberals" have, coincidentally, decided that they have better things to do when it comes to military service. Shocking, I know).

[ QUOTE ]
M already pointed out the flaw with your premise, so there isnt much more for me to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

M tried to dodge the point, and apparantly has given a few other Republicans some cover-rhetoric to hide behind. But the fact remains: you can guage the sincerity of a man's words by his actions. A man who will "support a war" by sending someone else to fight it for him, but who won't step up and join in that fight himself, is a fraud. And no matter how many stickers he puts on his car, he remains a fraud nonetheless. I do not count you in this catagory, because you have put your money where your mouth is. Your Republican friends on this board, however, seem occupied with either making excuses or remaining conspicuously silent. To them, I offer no such respect. They're simply playing political fantasy-games with other people's lives. Why on earth anyone in the military would consider such people "supporters" is beyond me.


q/q

[Vince Young]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I spent two carrier deployments flying missions in that theatre. One deployment was flying missions over Afghanistan. The other was flying missions over Iraq. I find your grilling of me rather distateful but typical of the lemming like liberal behavior I see in here so often. I think you need to go find some statistics because I dont think the support for Bush among officers is significantly higher than among enlisted personnel. At any rate, that has no applicability to this discussion. Surely you arent suggesting that because I have a commission I have no idea what the people that work for me think about politics?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I'm a "lemming like liberal"

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
M tried to dodge the point, and apparantly has given a few other Republicans some cover-rhetoric to hide behind. But the fact remains: you can guage the sincerity of a man's words by his actions. A man who will "support a war" by sending someone else to fight it for him, but who won't step up and join in that fight himself, is a fraud

[/ QUOTE ]

This is sheer nonsense.

Do you support the work of firefighters? Well then why don't you just put on a firefighting suit and zip on down to your local firehouse and be ready for action next time a fire breaks out in your neighborhood. Someone once said you can gauge a man's sincerity by his actions. A man who will "support" firefighting by sending others out to fight fires, but who won't actually don a firesuit and get in there and do battle with a hose against the flames, is a fraud.

Amazing to me that you can actually believe what you wrote above.

[QuadsOverQuads]

Very cute how you throw a barb at me, then edit out the part where I said "because I'm an ex-Republican". Very DoubleThink of you. You'll make a fine Bush supporter.


q/q

[Dead]

I think it's very DoublePlusGood.

Go Big Brother.

[vulturesrow]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. And about the namecalling, as I generally try to avoid that, so my apologies there. And I freely admit there is just as many lemmings on the right as there are on the left. I just find it some what humorous in that the left generally champions themselves as defenders of diversity but yet have no place in their party as it stands now for those who are pro-choice just as one example. But as you said, on to things of actual relevance.

The only reason I made the comment about your questioning what exactly I've done during my military service. I just didnt like the implication that if I had been in the military but hadnt been to Iraq then my support of the war would be hypocritical.

The fact remains that supporting a cause places no onus on the supporter to go out and physically take part in it. That is ridiculous. I dont disagree that a man who does go out and do that shows a higher level of dedication, but it doesnt make you a hypocrite not to.

[QuadsOverQuads]

Ok, M, let me explain to you in detail why your "reasoning" is complete BS :

[ QUOTE ]
Do you support the work of firefighters? Well then why don't you just put on a firefighting suit and zip on down to your local firehouse and be ready for action next time a fire breaks out in your neighborhood.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I support them by not starting fires.

You, by contrast, are starting wars. You're like an arsonist who accuses his opponents of not "supporting the firefighters" because they would rather put thier efforts into preventing the fires in the first place. It's so absurd that I can't believe you actually thought it would fly. Of course, you're a Republican, so even obvious absurdity is clearly no constraint on your rhetoric.

[ QUOTE ]
Someone once said you can gauge a man's sincerity by his actions. A man who will "support" firefighting by sending others out to fight fires, but who won't actually don a firesuit and get in there and do battle with a hose against the flames, is a fraud.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had -- even accidentally -- been involved in starting a fire, I'd be volunteering my services day and night until it was put out. It's called personal responsibility, and it wouldn't take an internet discussion for me to act on it. And I exercise that same responsibility by not creating situations that put firefighters into harm's way.

You, on the other hand, have NOT exercised this responsibility. You have lied the nation into wars of aggression. You have campaigned for those wars. You have flagrantly and intentionally deceived and manipulated and maligned your fellow citizens in pursuit of those wars. You Did This. Over and over and over and over, until you finally got what you wanted.

You. Did. This.

And yet when it comes time for actually deciding who's going to put their OWN ass on the line in order to FIGHT these wars you're aggressively promoting, you're all suddenly MIA. Or you have "fallen arches". Or, gee, the kids probably have soccer practice that day. Or (fill-in-the-blank).

You're not just hypocrites, you're outright frauds.

[ QUOTE ]
Amazing to me that you can actually believe what you wrote above.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.

As to what *I* wrote, however, I not only believe it, I stand by it 100%.


q/q

[Dead]

well said

[andyfox]

We all have political opinions. We're not obligated to act on them. If the war is an abomination, what have you done to stop the war? Couldn't you do more?

As for me, though I agree that the war is wrong, I'm busy trying to be a good husband, father, and son. I run my business, run carpool, exercise, read books, listen to music, help my son with his homework, take my dad to the doctor, and take time to, yes, play poker and post here.

The soldiers haven't died because of the Republican posters' lust for war.

[MMMMMM]

Well, q/q, I'm definitely not a Republican, so you're off base there too.

Nor have I "started" any wars, as you erroneously claim.

Your entire argument is based on the premise that it is hypocritical to support something if you don't jump in and get involved in it yourself in a major way. But most people simply cannot do that for all the things they support. Nor, I suspect, can you.

Professional soldiers fight our wars. Professional policemen try to protect our neighborhoods. And professional firefighters put out our fires and are among the first responders for the injured in accidents.

You may think the Iraq war was ill-advised. That however is irrelevant with regard to the validity of the faulty point you first presented.

There are many things I, and no doubt you, support, but are incapable of jumping in and working at professionally. It is ludicrous to ascribe hypocrisy in such cases on that basis; to fairly do so would require a much more compelling basis.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had -- even accidentally -- been involved in starting a fire, I'd be volunteering my services day and night until it was put out. It's called personal responsibility, and it wouldn't take an internet discussion for me to act on it. And I exercise that same responsibility by not creating situations that put firefighters into harm's way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Funny, you would work to put out fires that only you start. Our wonderful soldiers fight to put out everyone's fires. Just like the professional firefighter who puts out everyone else's fires, no matter who started them.

[Dead]

Except the US has started most of the world's "fires", including supplying arms to Saddam. So really, our soldiers are attempting to clean up messes that our government created.

Nice try.

[[censored]]

I already served, I guess this means I can keep on spamming?

[BCPVP]

And I hope you notice that they aren't the ones complaining (that I've heard from friends) about people supporting the war not serving. I only hear that argument from liberals, who usually don't support any war. But Q/Q is sadly mistaken in his presumption that if you support something you must actively take part in it. I support concealed carry laws, but I don't own a permit. Does that make me a hypocrite? I support our police, doctors and nurses, firefighters, even many politicians, but that doesn't mean I must become any of those things.

[zaxx19]

In all reality, Jesus would probably look like a modern day Palestinian

Why was he from Arabia>>??

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Except the US has started most of the world's "fires", including supplying arms to Saddam.

[/ QUOTE ]

The US did not start "most" of the world's "fires". Also, if you'll do a little reasearch, you'll find that Saddam purchased the bulk of his weaponry from the USSR.

[BCPVP]

"We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning..." /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Not to mention more recently, France. France was responsible for almost letting Saddam become nuclear. Thank god for Israel.

[QuadsOverQuads]

Let's make this real simple, M :

Regardless of who started the other "fires" in the world, you, as a war-supporter, started this one. You campaigned for it, you lied for it, you defrauded the nation and attacked your fellow citizens to get it. Whoever is responsible for the others, this one is your handiwork.

Now: when do you plan on enlisting to go fight it?


q/q

[zaxx19]

Probably about the time that you admit the war and subsequent peace seem to be transforming the entire middle east into a more stable region....a phenomenon that will bear the US and its citizens fruit for decades and perhaps centuries along with improving the daily lives of tens of millions of Arabs....

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably about the time that you admit the war and subsequent peace seem to be transforming the entire middle east into a more stable region....a phenomenon that will bear the US and its citizens fruit for decades and perhaps centuries along with improving the daily lives of tens of millions of Arabs....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll bring the rock salt, because hell will have frozen over.

Seriously, I'm wondering why I ever open threads that involve Quads and Dead, knowing full well what awaits inside will be the most mindless, hateful, ignorant things I have ever read.

Well said Zaxx (and to think I thought so little of you when you first showed up around these 2+2 parts...)

[zaxx19]

I have my moments of clarity....

And even some left wing polemics are now beginning to thaw on the Bush agenda for the middle east now that they can see tangible change across the region.

If the peace process in Palisrael continues to progress slowly but steadily within 5 yrs we could see a very very different middle east.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
And even some left wing polemics are now beginning to thaw on the Bush agenda for the middle east now that they can see tangible change across the region.

[/ QUOTE ]
Or can no longer deny the obvious and expect to be taken seriously.

[QuadsOverQuads]

That, zaxx, is almost certainly the most utterly delusional and transparently false statement I've heard from a Republican to date. And that's saying something.

Ask a soldier doing duty in Iraq right now just how much he likes this "subsequent peace" he's fighting in. Even the Republicans will laugh in your face on that one. It's an ongoing guerrilla war, and it's a prelude to invasions of at least two other nations. At minimum.

The fact that Fox News (aka: Republican Pravda) is portraying the "New Middle East" as a Great and Glorious Success for Our Glorious Leader only illustrates how desperate they're getting. Even a fool can see through a lie that big. Your average Republican, on the other hand, drinks it down like a cultist drinking Kool-Aid in Guyana.


q/q

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's make this real simple, M :

Regardless of who started the other "fires" in the world, you, as a war-supporter, started this one. You campaigned for it, you lied for it, you defrauded the nation and attacked your fellow citizens to get it. Whoever is responsible for the others, this one is your handiwork.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are totally off your rocker, I did none of those things, and you can't seriously think I did unless you are severely delusional. That said, it was a very just war which will soon bring better things to the good people of Iraq (much better than they had under Saddam, anyway). Now, q/q, try taking a few deep breaths, and try to get a grip on reality.

[thatpfunk]

We can not safely argue as to how successful the invasion was.

We honestly have no idea and are simply speculating. It could end up great (as everyone obviously should hope) but there are MANY factors that could prove otherwise.

Its pretty silly to argue over pure speculation.

[zaxx19]

The election/turnout wasnt/isnt speculation it happened and it was a high watermark in Arab democratic development no matter how you would frame it.

The reopeneing of the mid east peace process isnt speculation it too has happened- along with elections in Palestine that went to relatively moderate forces who seem to be more eager to actively combat miltitants than before.

Lebanese flooding Beiruti streets in a show of resistance to anti democratic forces also last I checked is not speculation...

As is Egyptian Pres. Mubarak announcing his son will not inherit the seat of Egyptian politics....

very limited elections (municipal ones) in Saudi Arabia..

etc etc...

Has the middle east completely transformed in 3 yrs??...no, and nowone on this board is asserting it has or will shortly. Has a clear shift been detected in how the leaders and govts in the middle east must conduct themselves, certainly and we can only pray this shift progresses further and further.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
we can only pray this shift progresses further and further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Right now it is pure speculation as to how it will all turn out... There are absolutely no guarantees and we do not know how the generation growing up will feel abuot the US in the future.

Because those things that you listed have been *accomplished* does not mean anything in the long run. History is littered with times when we thought we did well at the time, and things changed.

[zaxx19]

Would you agree that desegregation is a work in progress in the US and that it cant ultimately be evaluated at this time???

[thatpfunk]

you are ridiculous. i don't need to justify that with a response. seriously waxx, i wont get into dumb arguments, if you can't figure out the difference, then why should I bother continuing conversation with you? im not posting to watch myself type, i like hearing other peoples opinions and enjoy intelligent discourse.

why not be a reasonable person, as I have treated you?

[zaxx19]

I really dont see what is unreasonable about the comparison...

Im drawing parallels between both situations not commenting on Segregation one way or the other.

[thatpfunk]

The amount of time passed for your example- 40 years.

The amount of time passed in the situation in which you are comparing it- 1 year, maybe?

This is common sense.

[QuadsOverQuads]

Notably absent from your list of accomplishments is "saving the United States from the imminent threat of Iraqi 'weapons of mass destruction'".

Gee, I wonder where that lie went?

Oh well, I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.

All we'll have to is wait about a year, then look for where the latest crop of lies went. And I can even give you a hint: they'll all be gone, down the Memory Hole, just like the crop of lies that went before them.

And, dutiful little propagandists that you Republicans are, you'll simply change your tune right along with the winds from Party Headquarters. "Freedom? Never heard of it! Don't you know that we really went to Iraq for (fill in reason-of-the-day here)?"

But lost beneath your tornado of lies and spin will be one fundamental fact: you lied this nation and its soldiers into a war of aggression, and you have no intention of shouldering one iota of the burden for it yourself. You won't fight, you won't pay taxes, you won't do much more than put a sticker on your car. Oh, and you'll shout "traitor!" at anyone who calls you on your bullsh_t.

Like I said: just go back to your Fox News, and listen to them tell you about the wonderful Utopia that Our Great Leader is building in the Middle East. It's right there, just around the corner. Any day now. All is well. Trust us. And when he invades Iran, they'll greet us with flowers. Just like the Iraqis did. Now, have another drink of that yummy Kool-Aid.


q/q

[zaxx19]

Notably absent from your list of accomplishments is "saving the United States from the imminent threat of Iraqi 'weapons of mass destruction'".

And your point is........

Whether or not there were WOMD has no bearing on the regional effect the war and subsequent occupation and election has had on the region which is the MORE IMPORTANT EFFECT ANYWAY.

If Iran was stable, free and democratic they probably wouldnt be wasting time developing WOMD the regime would be servicing the populace by raising the living conditions and developing other tech sectors of the economy with the resources it now squandars in a vain attempt to attain nuclear power status.

[Dead]

I knew it.

You crazy bastards plan on attacking Iran next. And then Syria.

God help us.

[sirio11]

Very well said

[jaxmike]

ahh, a shot at me while knowing nothing about me. ok, how to respond.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't worry.

Jesus loves liberals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus loves everyone.

[ QUOTE ]
He was a liberal himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was at his time, but I am not sure he would be one now.

[ QUOTE ]
All these conservatives are in for a rude awakening in the afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. God gave us free will. I choose what I want to believe, he wouldn't punish me for using what he gave me I don't think.

[ QUOTE ]

An afterlife conversation might go something like this.

Jesus: How much did you give to charity, jaxmike?
Jaxmike: Uh... none. I also voted Republican because I wanted poor people to understand the concept of "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY".

[/ QUOTE ]

I gave about 5% of my annual income to charity. I gave money to Salvation Army every time I passed their bell ringers. I contributed to the United Way, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, AMERICAN Red Cross, I also gave money to the 9/11 and Tsunami efforts. How much did Dead give???

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus: Why did you vote for a candidate who cut hundreds of thousands of people off the health care rolls, jaxmike?

Jaxmike:Uh... personal responsibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I couldn't, in good concience vote for a liar who shot a man in the back.

[ QUOTE ]

Jesus then presses the Hell button on his chair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I highly doubt that. You clearly know very little about religion if, nevermind, its not worth discussing with you.

[ QUOTE ]

Feel free to substitute Zaxx's or natedogg's name in for Jaxmike.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead, when you get older and a little more education, you will never see how wrong you are. The reason you wont is that you are too entrenched into the liberal mindset, their brainwashing program (public education) has done a fine job on you.

[vulturesrow]

Very well said. See, we conservatives can partake in mindless cheerleading too!

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like an honest answer from our resident GOP spammers :

Given that you're so gung-ho for the invasion and occupation of Iraq (and Iran, and Syria, and God-knows-how-many beyond that), I seriously want to know why you are spending your time playing poker and posting on this message board, rather than enlisting to serve in your allegedly Great And Moral Cause?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I had no interest in joining the military out of high school. I wanted to go to college and get a job.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you believe that this is TRULY a great and moral cause, or does your rhetoric somehow fall short when it comes to putting your OWN ass on the line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it is indeed a good cause. I don't put my ass on the line because I realize that I wouldn't be very good at helping. I would cause more harm then what help I would provide.

[ QUOTE ]
And if you DO believe your own rhetoric, then I seriously want to know why you're here, instead of over there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because someone has to do my job. Someone has to do theirs. My job is not to fight a war, but if it comes down to it, I would.

[ QUOTE ]

Why haven't you signed up yet?


[/ QUOTE ]

Probably too old and I have some old injuries that might prevent me from doing so. I also have a job that I am doing. I am not claiming to be Pat Tillman, but I think that I am no hypocrit.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you intend to sign up in the future?


[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]

If so, when?


[/ QUOTE ]

N/A

[ QUOTE ]

And if not, why not?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because I already have a job. I am probably getting too old. I have some old injuries from basketball that would probably not allow me to do the job as I would want to. I don't want to put others in danger because I am no longer physically 100%, don't get me wrong, I am not handicapped or anything, I just have 2 bad ankles (1 REALLY bad) and 2 bad knees.

[ QUOTE ]

I'd honestly like to hear your answers to these questions.


[/ QUOTE ]

You got them.

[ QUOTE ]

Over 1500 American soldiers have died because of your lust for war.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is dishonest. That's not why they have died, but you hate Bush too much to admit it.

[ QUOTE ]

Over ten thousand have suffered severe injury.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel for them, I really do.

[ QUOTE ]

Many times that number have been put into harm's way, and yet here you sit, spamming the internet from the comfort of your living rooms while someone else does the fighting and bleeding and dying for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I am at work. I have my job.

[ QUOTE ]

I want to know why you aren't willing to stand among them.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say I am not willing, but I am questionably able, and again, I chose a different career path, sorry.

[ QUOTE ]
I want to know why you aren't already standing among them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe i have covered this.

[ QUOTE ]
And I suspect many of our soldiers are wondering the same thing, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kinda doubt that. I bet more are wondering why you hate what they are doing so much. Why the media in this country continually lies about whats going on in war zones. We saw it in Vietnam and we are seeing it now. The media is using a war to launch a public relations war against our troops and leadership.

[ QUOTE ]

I await your explanations.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

You got them. But I have a feeling you wont like them.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Why haven't you signed up yet?

I tried to sign up on 9/12/01. Unfortunately, since I was 50 years at the time, they wouldn't take me.

[jaxmike]

this is nonsense. dont listen to dead especially this post.

jesus doesnt hate libertarians or republicans any more than he loves democrats.

medicaid is something I want cut, not because i dont like what it does, i dont like how it does it. just about every social program i support. but, i support it on the local and state level, not the national level.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
public relations war against our troops

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a big difference between this war and vietnam, people DO support the troops now.

I am very close to broke at the moment but still donated >30% of my bank account to a support the troops cause this week.

Just because I do not support the war, does not mean that I do not support the troops. Disagreeing with the actions that they have to take in a democratic society is healthy.

And threads about the soldiers is probably the only thing in the forum that I am not able to laugh off. It really bugs me when people criticize them or use them as tools to manipulate an argument (not saying you in specific jax) because we are sitting on our asses doing nothing, while they are risking their lives. That really irks me like none other and I find it difficult to respect someone who would look at their situation so shallowly.

[Zygote]

This is stupid, i'm sorry, i had to say it.

Do you support the effort to remove rapists? Do you support the effort to remove murderers?

Why haven't you signed up for the police yet?

Do you intend to sign up in the future?

If so, when?

And if not, why not?

I'd honestly like to hear your answers to these questions.

Thousands of police officers have died because of your lust for stopping crime. Well over ten thousand have suffered severe injury. Many times that number have been put into harm's way, and yet here you sit, spamming the internet from the comfort of your living rooms while someone else does the fighting and bleeding and dying for you. I want to know why you aren't willing to stand among them. I want to know why you aren't already standing among them. And I suspect many of our police are wondering the same thing, too.

I await your explanations! Please answer my questions.

[jaxmike]

here the thing though pfunk. back in Vietnam, the people supported the troops also. then, as time passed, and the onslaught from the media continued, the people began to change their mind. it's simply what happened. look at the military history of vietnam, look at how the media covered it.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1978/nov-dec/bishop.html

http://www.gruntonline.com/US_Forces/US_MarineCorps/USMC_chronology.htm
[ QUOTE ]
In the Battle for Hue City, the North Vietnamese in Division strength on January 31 captured most of the city except for small pockets of resistance. Elements of the 1st Marine Division Task Force X-ray, the South Vietnamese 1st ARVN Division, and the U.S. 1st Air Cavalry Division in month-long house to house fighting retook the city with significant losses suffered by both sides... The capture of Hue, the ancient Imperial capital of Vietnam had significant symbolic reverberations throughout the country and was the one partially successful element of the enemy Tet offensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the truth, the Tet offensive was a huge defeat for the Vietcong, yet the media would have left you thinking the opposite.

Did the US ever really lose a battle in Vietnam?

http://www.vietnam-war.info/myths/

[ QUOTE ]
The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. (Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a renowned expert on the Vietnam War) [Westmoreland] This included Tet 68, which was a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand by my belief that the network media, for whatever reason, lied to the public repeatedly during Vietnam and they are doing it again now.

[Utah]

Do you believe in law and order in this country? If so, when do you plan to sign up to be a police officer.

Of course, your argument is non sensical for obvious reasons.

[Eihli]

your and my lust for non-war has saved just as many people as any other poster's lust for war has killed. (make sense?) zero.

the only thing most these people have done to support this war is vote for it, and the only thing i've done to not support it is vote against it. how can i expect someone to act on their beliefs of war if i havn't acted on my beliefs of pacifism?

[guller]

Are you chained to an old growth (dead) redwood tree right now, or are you at your computer desk (made of wood).

[Felix_Nietsche]

It is no secret the republicans own the military vote.

I believe the numbers are approximately 70% of the military votes republican.
72% of active duty soldiers preferred Bush while 19% preferred Kerry...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25656-2004Oct11.html
So we can conclude that Republicans are more likely to fight for America than Democrats....

Another troll post by a "chickendove" liberal democrat.... /images/graemlins/frown.gif
Or do you prefer the term...progressive?

[Dead]

Except Kerry fought for America and Bush didn't.

Another post by a weirdo Republican. Or do you prefer the term stupid?

[chabibi]

[ QUOTE ]
Except Kerry fought for America and Bush didn't

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead, what the hell is your point. felix makes a good argument and you reply with this? you are like a little kid who's only comeback is " i know you are but what am i?"

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Except Kerry fought for America and Bush didn't.

Another post by a weirdo Republican. Or do you prefer the term stupid?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry Dead. This post does nothing to show that the majority of military men are Republican.

[Felix_Nietsche]

"weirdo","stupid"

<Sigh> Why are democrats so angry and aggressive?...
Is it possible to have a rational discussion with them with out the ad hominem attacks?.....Nah...Probably Not /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Bush served in the National Guard.
Kerry who set the swift boat record for the shortest stay in a combat zone (4 months) and proceded to attack his own country when he returned to the US. Even Kerry admits he regrets these actions (assuming he was not lying so people wouldn't think he was a self hating American).

Between the two, I say Bush served his country better than Kerry...

[Felix_Nietsche]

This is why Democrats like Gore and the Washington State Govenor try to enforce the overseas military ballot deadlines even in war zones like Iraq.....

The more military votes they can disenfranchise.....the better the dems do in the election...

[jaxmike]

Funny how now its a big deal, but when the draft dodging perjurer Clinton is involved, its not.

[jaxmike]

he is a kid. a naieve little kid who is totally indoctrinated by the liberal education system. he simply has yet to recieve a true education, its almost not his fault, almost.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]

<Sigh> Why are democrats so angry and aggressive?...


[/ QUOTE ]

Because they cannot win the people with their stances on issues. They resort to name calling, baseless accusations, and their control (quickly evaporating) of the media and educational systems to scare and fool the public into voting for them.

[ QUOTE ]

Is it possible to have a rational discussion with them with out the ad hominem attacks?.....Nah...Probably Not /images/graemlins/frown.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

By definition, no.

[zaxx19]

Bump....\\

On Liberals(I mean self avowed lefties)

Their whole 1990's neo-liberal(social engineering to meet far left wing demands on secularism, homosexuality, political correctness) Clinton led world is imploding and instead of being pragmatic and coming up with new ideas and concepts they are simply climbing back into their left wing cocoons by surrounding themselves with like minded Liberals on college campuses and in the Northeast/California.

Basically it seems like their entire agenda involves sniping at Bush and other Neo-cons(sometimes through the use of contrived evidence or farcical mockumentaries..)obstructing any reform domesticallly (especially when it is aimed at limiting the balooning incomes of trial lawyers or forcing teachers to actually teach properly) and trying to convince old people Bush will take away their SS checks.

At the same time they are pretending like its only bible thumping nimrod nazis who are voting GOP when in fact the GOP has created a strong constituency from a myriad of groups that more closely resembles AMERICA than the increasingly detached DNC has...

When you couple this with a probable Hillary run in 2008, a strong possibilty of 3 Supreme court appointments by Bush, and flagging numbers in the congress, the future for the lefties is very bleak at the national level.

I still think the country is pretty much split evenly...its just that the GOP is a much more dynamic and energized party at the moment and common knowledge used to be that the Democrats were really more like 60% of the country...which after the last election doesnt seem to be the case.

[masse75]

Overall, what a worthless [censored] post--meaning the entire thread. Just reinforces that Dems and Repubs alike would rather stand around and point fingers rather than engage in any rational discourse. I've seen more productive fights among chimps throwing feces at each other...which is actually a step UP from this.

[Kenrick]

Republicans weren't "gung-ho" over the war. There are many reasons the U.S. is in Iraq, one of which is Saddam disregarding resolutions that ended Desert Storm and the U.N. not doing anything about it. And so, Desert Storm never ended. I remember Kerry not only voting for this, but if you watch the older clips, he was VERY vocal about the threat of Saddam. Er, but that was after he was for the war, but before he was against it, or something. It's not just Republicans who thought the war was a better option than not, and pretending the decision was all-Republican shows the biasness and irrationality of someone who would say such a thing.

Arguments of "where are the WMD's" are old. Even Bill Clinton said he thought they were there until the invasion.

I'm still waiting for QuadsOverQuads to say he's joined the police department. Unless of course he doesn't support police from keeping people from killing others.

[Cyrus]

while the American men in uniform are more Republicans than Democrats, more Democrats than Republicans have proudly worn the American uniform.

Any time you wanna debate this in more depth, put up a little post and we'll have fun comparing the record. (And I will not even bring up George W Bush.)

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dead]

Double post, but look below.

[Dead]

You can't debate this unless you change your remark from "more Democrats than Republicans" to "more prominent Democrats than prominent Republicans". You'd only be talking about members of Congress and the like probably.

I do agree that the vast majority of our armed forces are Republicans, enlisted and officer alike.

I know you're going to bring up that "who served?" web page which lists excuses from prominent Republicans but the website only lists like 100 people max. Hundreds of millions of Americans have worn the military uniform, so any arguments you make based on this data would be flawed.

Do you see why?

I'll let others elaborate.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't debate this unless you change your remark from "more Democrats than Republicans" to "more prominent Democrats than prominent Republicans". You'd only be talking about members of Congress and the like probably.


[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

Them's the phonies alright.