I just got my ass kicked - tell me all the ways I suck. [Archive]

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LuvDemNutz

03-09-2005, 08:30 PM

Played an hour long session on PP and got my ass absolutely handed to me. It's no fun dropping a $900 in an hour. I might go back to limit after this.

HAND 1 -

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 ($331.7)
MP2 ($180.3)
Hero ($475.2)
CO ($667.2)
Button ($294.1)
SB ($215.2)
BB ($606.2)
UTG ($161.4)
UTG+1 ($119.7)
UTG+2 ($257.3)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
4 folds, MP2 calls $4, Hero raises to $18, CO raises to $32, 3 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls $14.

Flop: ($74) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $40, Hero calls $40.

Turn: ($154) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $100, Hero calls $100.

River: ($354) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $150, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $504

Results in white below: 
CO doesn't show.
Outcome: CO wins $504. 

HAND 2 -

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($376.5)
CO ($150)
Button ($150.9)
SB ($440.7)
BB ($251.1)
Hero ($412.2)
UTG+1 ($500.4)
UTG+2 ($514)
MP1 ($379.5)
MP2 ($394)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $4. SB posts a blind of $2.
Hero raises to $18, 7 folds, SB (poster) raises to $60, 1 fold, Hero calls $44.

Flop: ($132) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $55, Hero calls $55.

Turn: ($242) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $75, Hero calls $75.

River: ($392) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $75, Hero calls $75.

Final Pot: $542

Results in white below: 
SB has Ah As (two pair, aces and sevens).
Hero has Kh Ks (two pair, kings and sevens).
Outcome: SB wins $542. 

HAND 3 - TILT and an action flop = I lose money

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+2 ($412.2)
MP1 ($228.8)
MP2 ($67.4)
MP3 ($720.7)
CO ($382.1)
Hero ($246.5)
SB ($604.6)
BB ($479.4)
UTG ($400)
UTG+1 ($432.3)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
3 folds, MP1 calls $4, MP2 calls $4, 1 fold, CO raises to $10, Hero calls $10, 2 folds, MP1 calls $6, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($40) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets $25, Hero calls $25, MP1 calls $25.

Turn: ($115) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets $100, Hero calls $211.50 (All-In), MP1 folds, CO calls $111.50.

River: ($538) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $538

Results in white below: 
CO has Kd 7d (full house, sevens full of kings).
Hero has 9c 8c (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: CO wins $538. 

HAND 4 - more TILT plus playing against shortstack

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($377.2)
BB ($108.3)
UTG ($160.9)
UTG+1 ($713.7)
UTG+2 ($233.1)
Hero ($419.8)
MP2 ($608.6)
MP3 ($491.4)
CO ($401.3)
Button ($367.8)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $18, 5 folds, BB calls $14, UTG folds.

Flop: ($42) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $25, BB raises to $50, Hero raises to $90, BB calls $40.30 (All-In), Hero calls $0.29.

Turn: ($222.60) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($222.60) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $222.60

Results in white below: 
BB has 3h 3d (one pair, threes).
Hero has Ac Kd (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins $222.60.

LuvDemNutz

03-09-2005, 08:34 PM

Just glancing at this I see about $400 that I pissed away.

I really have a hard time understanding why I KNOW what I should do but I don't actually do it.

JKratzer

03-09-2005, 08:48 PM

A general trend I noticed is that you are way too passive. First hand - you have KK, reraise preflop. He reraised, what hands do most people do this with? Premium pairs usually. With a Q and 10 on the flop you're behind everything but JJ. I'm guessing he had AA actually, but if you had reraised preflop you might have a better idea where you're at. As it is checking and calling on every street is hardly ever a good idea. Hand #2 is more or less the same, yeah you had KK and he had AA. You're usually gonna lose a stack on it, but that doesn't mean you should be so passive. Hand #3 you're aggressive, but its with a draw against someone that has shown they have a good hand. Your fold equity is probably pretty low and on the turn (when you push) you're not getting proper odds with only the river to come (even assuming all your outs are good, which you can't assume with a pair on board). Didn't read #4 (I'm tired).

Sorry to be blunt, trying to help. I'm sure others can be more helpful, that's just my take on it after a quick glance.

JKratzer

LuvDemNutz

03-09-2005, 08:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry to be blunt, trying to help.

JKratzer

[/ QUOTE ]

Bluntness is fine by me.

The_Bends

03-09-2005, 08:53 PM

Hand 1
I'd probably reraise the flop to negate his positional advantage and find out how much he likes his hand. When the flop comes you have to lead out or checkraise. I like leading the pot into the raiser and seeing is he repops you thinking you're trying to take it away. On the turn you have to put your money in reraise him the max, he could have any numbe of hnads you beat. On the river I think a call is easily justified given the weak bet
All in all you played incredible weak tight and either let him take you off the best hand or catch an A on the river. Disaster

Hand 2
Exactly the same hand but with an even less threatening flop given his raise. You have to raise him somewhere. It is very hard ot put him on AA without raising him at some point.

Hand 3
On the turn, given the almost 0% chance that he will fold and accepting also that you can not win without hitting a draw you should flat call. Rest seems fine

Hand 4
Seems fine to me, with him playing so short there are few options. Given the pot size once he reraises you and the chance he's just trying to take you off an auto flop lead I' d have to put him in.

You are playing very weak tight which is probably a reflection on the fact you're a limit player and possibly scared of NL betting.

My 0.02

phil_ivey_fan

03-09-2005, 09:28 PM

Here are my thoughts w/ no reads on the players...

Hand1: pop him back preflop, make it 90$ to go. if reraised, you can lay it down knowing he has AA. If he calls, check raise him on the flop, if he comes over the top, fold cause you're beat w/ a set or AA.

Hand2: hard to get away from that one ;-) FWIW, I'd raise him on the flop, and try to get my money in.

Hand3: sorry, but I don't like it for two reasons...
1) the board paired on the flop, your flush or str8 could be dead.
2) its multiway, and you could be against a higher flush draw.
The flop call of $25 is ok, but I'm folding on the turn.

Hand4: touch situation. is he the type of player capable of moving on high cards?

Yeknom58

03-09-2005, 09:32 PM

Can you tell me what the hell you were doing with KK preflop in those 2 hands?

zaxx19

03-09-2005, 09:36 PM

On the first two I think your KK ran up against AA...its gonna happen and its gonna hurt if yur arent weak passive. Perhaps reraising to 85 in the first hand would have elicited a push....but then yu got a big decision anyway so...I mean in theory its a muck but its very difficult to let got of KK anytime preflop.\\

Hand 3 gets mucked on the turn you have no idea which outs are live and if you even wanna make your draws....he led weak at the flop...imho thats not a good sign given the turn bet.

soah

03-09-2005, 09:37 PM

Your play on most of these hands looks much better than some of the alternative lines being suggested, which basically seem to be telling you to start shovelling money into the pot as fast as possible so that you can be completely certain that only better hands will call you. Getting information about your opponent's hand is nice, but you're not supposed to do it by putting your entire stack in the pot.

LuvDemNutz

03-09-2005, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he led weak at the flop...imho thats not a good sign given the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent point.

Yeknom58

03-09-2005, 09:41 PM

I hope you're not refering to the KK hands? I didn't read the other replies but generally speaking I like to do lots of shovelling with KK preflop.

soah

03-09-2005, 09:43 PM

Sounds like a good way to only get your money in the pot when you're way behind.

Yeknom58

03-09-2005, 09:54 PM

"Sounds like a good way to only get your money in the pot when you're way behind. "

You're joking right? Because I'm sure laughing. Unless I....had a rock solid uber read and I've never seen him raise with anything but AA for 100000000 hands...can you immediately jump to the conclusion he has AA. I'm not saying just throw in all in but definitely another Re-raise preflop..then if he comes over the top will his hand become more defined.

soah

03-09-2005, 10:01 PM

I didn't say to fold. Just because you think you have the best hand does not mean that it's always correct to bet or raise. There are some books available which discuss this concept in much greater detail.

LuvDemNutz

03-09-2005, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You're joking right? Because I'm sure laughing. Unless I....had a rock solid uber read and I've never seen him raise with anything but AA for 100000000 hands...can you immediately jump to the conclusion he has AA. I'm not saying just throw in all in but definitely another Re-raise preflop..then if he comes over the top will his hand become more defined.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience people re-raise tight players preflop with a very, very narrow range of hands.

evanski

03-10-2005, 12:47 AM

Sure looks to me like hes playing them correctly. Preflop, at least. 3 betting with KK is a losing proposition against all but the worst of players.

-Evan

SpeakEasy

03-10-2005, 01:13 AM

I'm going to highly selectively edit here...

[ QUOTE ]
HAND 1 -
Hero ($475.2)
Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $14.
Hero checks,
Hero calls $40.
Hero checks,
Hero calls $100.
Hero checks,
Hero folds.

HAND 2 -
Hero ($412.2)
Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $44.
Hero calls $55.
Hero calls $75.
Hero calls $75.
Outcome: SB wins $542.

HAND 3 - TILT and an action flop = I lose money
Hero ($246.5)
Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls $10,
Hero calls $25,
Hero calls $211.50 (All-In),
Outcome: CO wins $538.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero, do you see a pattern and the problem?

bvaughn

03-10-2005, 03:43 AM

LuvDemNutz - be glad you don't suck as bad as I do, and that your ass didn't get kicked quite as hard as mine:

I played 44 hands of $1000 NL tonight, and basically 3 hands determine my fate and future at $1000 NL:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($642)
SB ($1156.75)
Hero ($985)
UTG ($958)
UTG+1 ($2273)
MP1 ($237)
MP2 ($1418.75)
MP3 ($442)
CO ($1239)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $5.
4 folds, MP3 raises to $35, CO calls $35, 2 folds, Hero calls $25.

Flop: ($110) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets $75, Hero raises to $182, MP3 folds, CO calls $107.

Turn: ($474) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($474) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $250, CO raises to $700, Hero calls $518 (All-In), CO calls $68.

Final Pot: $2010

Results in white below: 
Hero has 9s 9d (full house, nines full of queens).
CO has Kd Qd (full house, queens full of kings).
Outcome: CO wins $2010. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 ($642)
MP2 ($1151.75)
MP3 ($400)
Hero ($1000)
Button ($948)
SB ($2263)
BB ($237)
UTG ($1446.75)
UTG+1 ($397)
UTG+2 ($2261)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $10. SB posts a blind of $5.
4 folds, MP2 raises to $60, 1 fold, Hero raises to $120, 3 folds, MP2 calls $60.

Flop: ($265) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $150, MP2 raises to $300, Hero calls $150.

Turn: ($865) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets $300, Hero calls $580 (All-In), MP2 calls $280.

River: ($2025) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $2025

Results in white below: 
MP2 has Ah Ad (full house, aces full of queens).
Hero has 8c 8s (full house, eights full of queens).
Outcome: MP2 wins $2025. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($1102.5)
CO ($2439.25)
Hero ($790)
SB ($1554.5)
BB ($1008.5)
UTG ($256)
UTG+1 ($1418.25)
MP1 ($675.5)
MP2 ($2350)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $5.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $55, 2 folds, MP3 calls $55, 1 fold, Hero raises to $150, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $95, MP3 calls $95.

Flop: ($465) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero calls $640 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $640, MP3 folds.

Turn: ($1745) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($1745) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $1745

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has 9d 9c (three of a kind, nines).
Hero has Kd As (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $1745. 

So here's my illustrious totals: Total Hands 44 VPIP 15.91%, PFR 11.36%,WSD 66.77%,W$SD 0.00,Amount won -$3506.50, BB/100=-398.47

I felt, at the time, that I was playing pretty good, but maybe some more experienced NL players could point out my faults. In the hands, there were very, very few hands that could beat me, but at the time, those few hands were exactly what I was up against. Maybe I'm very naive to NL poker, but can you be so weak as to always assume the worst?..I'm used to limit so this is a legit quesiton.

cjmewett

03-10-2005, 06:51 AM

You consistently raise WAY too little: first hand you raise the flop $107 with $260 in the pot. (Maybe this is as a result of some confusion about "RAISE $185" vs. "RAISE TO $185.") Opponent is getting better than 3:1 on a call. You should raise to something like $250, at least.

Turn check-check means one of two things: either you both just filled up or he has AK and worries about a CR. By the time you get raised all-in it's pretty clear he doesn't have AK.

What's with the PF min-(re)raise with 88? Are you trying to be tricky, or just steal the pot? Either way, I think it's awful. Having said that, in NL a min-raise is almost always a bluff or a monster. He min-raises your set on the flop, then weak-leads into you again on the turn. What hand can you beat that would be making this play? It seems pretty clear that he's worried about keeping you from folding, not probing for information.

You're right that there aren't many hands that beat yours in both cases, but (hopefully without sounding like a dick) I think you played your hands in a way that ensured that those hands which DID beat you would get all your money. In limit you can afford to pay off hands like this because "there's not that much out there that beats me." Not so in NL, obviously.

OrangeHeat

03-10-2005, 09:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HAND 1 -
Hero ($475.2)
Hero is MP3 with K, K.
Hero calls $14.
Hero checks,
Hero calls $40.
Hero checks,
Hero calls $100.
Hero checks,
Hero folds.

HAND 2 -
Hero ($412.2)
Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero calls $44.
Hero calls $55.
Hero calls $75.
Hero calls $75.
Outcome: SB wins $542.

HAND 3 - TILT and an action flop = I lose money
Hero ($246.5)
Hero is Button with 9, 8.
Hero calls $10,
Hero calls $25,
Hero calls $211.50 (All-In),
Outcome: CO wins $538.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hero, do you see a pattern and the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

He needs to get better at making the nuts? Or learn to use the raise function........ 

Orange

gomberg

03-10-2005, 10:02 AM

If this is at partypoker, then he is playing against all the worst players a lot of the time.

Komodo

03-10-2005, 10:05 AM

bvaughn, I would have lost the same amount of money in these 3 hands. You were extremely unlucky in all 3 of them. Maybe a truly worldclass player could have got away from them, but it is very hard to blame your play there.
Komodo

LuvDemNutz

03-10-2005, 10:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to highly selectively edit here...

[ QUOTE ]
HAND 1 -
Hero ($475.2)
Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $14.
Hero checks,
Hero calls $40.
Hero checks,
Hero calls $100.
Hero checks,
Hero folds.

HAND 2 -
Hero ($412.2)
Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $44.
Hero calls $55.
Hero calls $75.
Hero calls $75.
Outcome: SB wins $542.

HAND 3 - TILT and an action flop = I lose money
Hero ($246.5)
Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls $10,
Hero calls $25,
Hero calls $211.50 (All-In),
Outcome: CO wins $538.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero, do you see a pattern and the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK - so I turned into a bit of a calling station for a few of these hands.

So help me out then - when would have been the appropriate spot to raise / fold?

Hand 1 - maybe I should have led at the flop and folded to a raise? What if I am flat called - should I assume I'm beat? Should I have just given it up on the flop - with a Q out there the only hand I beat is a whiffed AK - is a whiffed AK likely to fire another barrel on the turn?

Hand 2 - Where should I have raised? I put my opponent on AA so I thought about folding on the flop (but this is extremely weak tight to me). Should I have pushed on the turn representing the flush? If my opponent has AA with the A of diamonds he's definitely calling me here. Even if he doesn't have the A diamond he may still call because my range of hands could be 99-KK as well as a flush - so I really doubt he folds. I actually think I minimized my losses taking this line (as oppossed to giving my opponent credit for AA and folding pre-flop). People scoff at this idea but in my experience it is rare for a player to RE-raise the max PF (in Pot Limit), OOP with QQ or AK. So that only leaves one holding...

Hand 3 - was just ugly

LuvDemNutz

03-10-2005, 10:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
LuvDemNutz - be glad you don't suck as bad as I do, and that your ass didn't get kicked quite as hard as mine:

I played 44 hands of $1000 NL tonight, and basically 3 hands determine my fate and future at $1000 NL:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($642)
SB ($1156.75)
Hero ($985)
UTG ($958)
UTG+1 ($2273)
MP1 ($237)
MP2 ($1418.75)
MP3 ($442)
CO ($1239)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $5.
4 folds, MP3 raises to $35, CO calls $35, 2 folds, Hero calls $25.

Flop: ($110) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets $75, Hero raises to $182, MP3 folds, CO calls $107.

Turn: ($474) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($474) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $250, CO raises to $700, Hero calls $518 (All-In), CO calls $68.

Final Pot: $2010

Results in white below: 
Hero has 9s 9d (full house, nines full of queens).
CO has Kd Qd (full house, queens full of kings).
Outcome: CO wins $2010. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 ($642)
MP2 ($1151.75)
MP3 ($400)
Hero ($1000)
Button ($948)
SB ($2263)
BB ($237)
UTG ($1446.75)
UTG+1 ($397)
UTG+2 ($2261)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $10. SB posts a blind of $5.
4 folds, MP2 raises to $60, 1 fold, Hero raises to $120, 3 folds, MP2 calls $60.

Flop: ($265) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $150, MP2 raises to $300, Hero calls $150.

Turn: ($865) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets $300, Hero calls $580 (All-In), MP2 calls $280.

River: ($2025) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $2025

Results in white below: 
MP2 has Ah Ad (full house, aces full of queens).
Hero has 8c 8s (full house, eights full of queens).
Outcome: MP2 wins $2025. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($1102.5)
CO ($2439.25)
Hero ($790)
SB ($1554.5)
BB ($1008.5)
UTG ($256)
UTG+1 ($1418.25)
MP1 ($675.5)
MP2 ($2350)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $5.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $55, 2 folds, MP3 calls $55, 1 fold, Hero raises to $150, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $95, MP3 calls $95.

Flop: ($465) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero calls $640 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $640, MP3 folds.

Turn: ($1745) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($1745) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $1745

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has 9d 9c (three of a kind, nines).
Hero has Kd As (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $1745. 

So here's my illustrious totals: Total Hands 44 VPIP 15.91%, PFR 11.36%,WSD 66.77%,W$SD 0.00,Amount won -$3506.50, BB/100=-398.47

I felt, at the time, that I was playing pretty good, but maybe some more experienced NL players could point out my faults. In the hands, there were very, very few hands that could beat me, but at the time, those few hands were exactly what I was up against. Maybe I'm very naive to NL poker, but can you be so weak as to always assume the worst?..I'm used to limit so this is a legit quesiton.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK - some real tough ones here but here's my take.

Hand 1 - I think I probably go broke here. I think the Q on the turn would've made me uncomfortable but there's no way your folding so check -calling a pot size bet on the river would've saved you a couple hundred but I think in most situations that is not the optimal line.

Hand 2 - the PF minraise with 88 stinks. I'm surprised you didn't get reraised but as it turns out, it worked to disguise your opponents hand from you - I think I go broke here as well.

Hand 3 - I'd be interested to get opinions on the reraise with AK here. I don't particularly care for it. I think your opponent made a borderline call trying to spike a set (calling $100 more with you having $640 left behind) but the problem was he was already invested for $55. I think a raise to $200 clearly gives him improper odds to spike a set (since you would only have $590 left behind) and you take it down PF.

LuvDemNutz

03-10-2005, 04:21 PM

3 times in 2 days I've gotten KK and someone else has had AA - this is ridiculous. Anyone care to calculate the odds of that [censored]?

1169 hands - dealt KK 9 times, 3 times I come up against AA.

KK - won 55.56%

Net Won (383.00)
How's my line - maybe I should start folding to the reraise PF - wtf else am I gonna do?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($205.35)
UTG+1 ($137.85)
MP1 ($169)
MP2 ($214.3)
MP3 ($199.75)
CO ($276.78)
Button ($241.3)
SB ($321.4)
BB ($425.07)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
Hero raises to $10, 7 folds, BB raises to $38, Hero calls $30.

Flop: ($81) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $40, Hero raises to $80, BB calls $40.

Turn: ($241) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($241) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $241

Results in white below: 
BB has Ad As (one pair, aces).
Hero has Kh Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: BB wins $241.

Wayfare

03-10-2005, 04:44 PM

I think you got off as easy as any AA vs. KK I have ever seen. I cannot believe the villan did not lead for $250 on the river.

BoogieDown

03-10-2005, 04:48 PM

3/6 has your name written all over it. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

radioheadfan

03-10-2005, 05:39 PM

Step down in limits, say party 25NL or something similar until you learn how to play. Those hands you posted were atrocious.

LuvDemNutz

03-10-2005, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Step down in limits, say party 25NL or something similar until you learn how to play. Those hands you posted were atrocious.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about you post alternative lines rather than just broad criticism.

Read the subject line jerkoff -

It says tell me all the "ways" I suck, not tell me I suck.

padirk165

03-10-2005, 07:22 PM

hand 1 i think the check on the turn either means either a scared AK or a hand that just got there either KK, QQ, or KQ, although KK and QQ are less likely as they would likely reraise preflop, although I have seen that sometimes in the 5-10 NL on PP. Either way his raise on the river means you are beat, as the only possible hand he would make the play with that you could beat is AcKc and even that is very unlikely.

Hand 2
Does this playe often open raise to 6x BB. I know there was a poster in the hand so a lot of plaers will raise big with lesser hands to try and steal the extra $, but i still would give him credit for some kind of a hand certainly no one that you can push off for a min raise. On the flop when you get min raised what hands can you put MP2 on. I would say he either was on QQ AA or AQ all three seem very possible given preflop action. I dont think that you would get a min raise from AQ so I would say that you are up against a bigger set, this is still a very tough laydown without a read on the preflop raiser but i think his 6x raise should really make you wory when he does min raise the flop. I think a fold is in order on the flop and i think you certainly would have been able to get away from the hand if you had not min raised the preflop action creating such a large pot.

Hand 3
I think the flop play is fine given the pot size you really have no other options here. But i generally dont like reraising with AK against such a big preflop raise, again it is 5.5x BB, with a call between. Unless it has been common in the game for such large open raises. I would give the raiser credit for JJ-AA and AKs. you eihter need to raise larger or take a flop. if you take a flop you will be able to make a bet or raise on the flop without commiting yourself and depending on the action from 99 might get away from the hand on the flop but likely for certain on the turn action.

Shaun

03-10-2005, 07:42 PM

The last three hands look fine to me. The only thing I'd do differently is raise on the flop with 89c. Most of the time, he is not going to have a 7 so you've got some folding equity. If he does have an overpair and puts you on a draw and calls, you are almsot 50-50 anyway. Raise that flop- especially if you're on tilt. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

As for the first hand, you need to either re-raise preflop or on the flop. You just can't check and call on a board like that, because even if he has only AK, he has enough outs so that you need to make him pay. If he has you beat, you will find out easier by putting some pressure on him.

If the board was 872 or something, I like your play a lot, so long as you raise on the river. But with a Q-10 out there, though your opponent could have you beat already, if he doesn't he at least has quite a few outs that you need to charge him for.

Elem100

03-10-2005, 08:55 PM

As others have said, you can fold Hand 1 on the river, only a full house would raise this (except the very unlikely AcKc but given the paired board and your flop reraise he would probably just call) but this is always easy to say and less easy to do !

I raise more on the flop on 2, but definitely go broke here.

Hand 3 is just a bit of bad luck, but you pot committed yourself by the reraise if a K or A were to fall on the flop, was this a tactical choice to prevent your head from playing games post flop?

ScanX

03-10-2005, 10:31 PM

3 hands with KK :

are you playing with scared money when you sit at NL400 ?

LuvDemNutz

03-11-2005, 10:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
3 hands with KK :

are you playing with scared money when you sit at NL400 ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No - it may technically be a little too high for my existing bankroll but I'm not afraid to go broke.

Generally, these hands were situations where I felt I was beat but couldn't bring myself to fold (and raising when you think you're beat just doesn't feel right either).

SpeakEasy

03-11-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to highly selectively edit here...

[ QUOTE ]
HAND 1 -
Hero ($475.2)
Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $14.
Hero checks,
Hero calls $40.
Hero checks,
Hero calls $100.
Hero checks,
Hero folds.

HAND 2 -
Hero ($412.2)
Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $44.
Hero calls $55.
Hero calls $75.
Hero calls $75.
Outcome: SB wins $542.

HAND 3 - TILT and an action flop = I lose money
Hero ($246.5)
Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls $10,
Hero calls $25,
Hero calls $211.50 (All-In),
Outcome: CO wins $538.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero, do you see a pattern and the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK - so I turned into a bit of a calling station for a few of these hands.

So help me out then - when would have been the appropriate spot to raise / fold?

Hand 1 - maybe I should have led at the flop and folded to a raise? What if I am flat called - should I assume I'm beat? Should I have just given it up on the flop - with a Q out there the only hand I beat is a whiffed AK - is a whiffed AK likely to fire another barrel on the turn?

Hand 2 - Where should I have raised? I put my opponent on AA so I thought about folding on the flop (but this is extremely weak tight to me). Should I have pushed on the turn representing the flush? If my opponent has AA with the A of diamonds he's definitely calling me here. Even if he doesn't have the A diamond he may still call because my range of hands could be 99-KK as well as a flush - so I really doubt he folds. I actually think I minimized my losses taking this line (as oppossed to giving my opponent credit for AA and folding pre-flop). People scoff at this idea but in my experience it is rare for a player to RE-raise the max PF (in Pot Limit), OOP with QQ or AK. So that only leaves one holding...

Hand 3 - was just ugly

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, you saw from my selective editing that you are not playing aggressive. When I hold KK, I'm going to ramp up the aggression, for two reasons which have been suggested elsewhere on this thread (1) you want to get your money in the pot when you have the best hand, at the point during the hand where you are ahead, (2) being aggressive lets you know where you stand in relation to the other hands. "Check, call, check, call, fold" is weak, scared poker. And you know that already.

So, more specific advice:
Hand 1 -- Maybe re-raise pre-flop, to figure out what the minimum re-raise means. On the flop -- BET! On the turn, -- BET! There no other way of knowing whether you have the best hand here. And, more importantly, blast him off any straight or flush draw that he is playing, or at least give yourself this opportunity. On the river, if I were the villain, I would be thinking that you are on a diamond draw, or a spade draw, or a straight draw, based on the way you check-called. The $150 bet in a $350 pot could therefore be with a wide range of hands, thinking that your draw did not come through.

What if he has 88, JJ, T9, KQ, QJ, QT? You may still be ahead on the river, but you could have easily moved him off these hands by being the aggressor on the flop or turn.

Hand 2 -- From the flop on, you called and lost $205. Next time, when he leads with $55 on the flop, what about immediately raising something like $80 or $90 more? If he re-raises, fold, because you can assume AA or a set. (I would probably assume a set.) If he calls and leads on the turn, same assumptions. This way, you would lose only your $80-90 raise, rather than calling all of his bets for $205.

Hand 3 -- Pre-flop and flop you are fine. On the turn, with 15 outs you are a 2 to 1 dog, plus you may be drawing to the second best flush, plus you may be drawing dead except for the 6/images/graemlins/club.gif if villian already has a full house. I would fold to the turn bet.

LuvDemNutz

03-11-2005, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to highly selectively edit here...

[ QUOTE ]
HAND 1 -
Hero ($475.2)
Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $14.
Hero checks,
Hero calls $40.
Hero checks,
Hero calls $100.
Hero checks,
Hero folds.

HAND 2 -
Hero ($412.2)
Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $44.
Hero calls $55.
Hero calls $75.
Hero calls $75.
Outcome: SB wins $542.

HAND 3 - TILT and an action flop = I lose money
Hero ($246.5)
Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls $10,
Hero calls $25,
Hero calls $211.50 (All-In),
Outcome: CO wins $538.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero, do you see a pattern and the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK - so I turned into a bit of a calling station for a few of these hands.

So help me out then - when would have been the appropriate spot to raise / fold?

Hand 1 - maybe I should have led at the flop and folded to a raise? What if I am flat called - should I assume I'm beat? Should I have just given it up on the flop - with a Q out there the only hand I beat is a whiffed AK - is a whiffed AK likely to fire another barrel on the turn?

Hand 2 - Where should I have raised? I put my opponent on AA so I thought about folding on the flop (but this is extremely weak tight to me). Should I have pushed on the turn representing the flush? If my opponent has AA with the A of diamonds he's definitely calling me here. Even if he doesn't have the A diamond he may still call because my range of hands could be 99-KK as well as a flush - so I really doubt he folds. I actually think I minimized my losses taking this line (as oppossed to giving my opponent credit for AA and folding pre-flop). People scoff at this idea but in my experience it is rare for a player to RE-raise the max PF (in Pot Limit), OOP with QQ or AK. So that only leaves one holding...

Hand 3 - was just ugly

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, you saw from my selective editing that you are not playing aggressive. When I hold KK, I'm going to ramp up the aggression, for two reasons which have been suggested elsewhere on this thread (1) you want to get your money in the pot when you have the best hand, at the point during the hand where you are ahead, (2) being aggressive lets you know where you stand in relation to the other hands. "Check, call, check, call, fold" is weak, scared poker. And you know that already.

So, more specific advice:
Hand 1 -- Maybe re-raise pre-flop, to figure out what the minimum re-raise means. On the flop -- BET! On the turn, -- BET! There no other way of knowing whether you have the best hand here. And, more importantly, blast him off any straight or flush draw that he is playing, or at least give yourself this opportunity. On the river, if I were the villain, I would be thinking that you are on a diamond draw, or a spade draw, or a straight draw, based on the way you check-called. The $150 bet in a $350 pot could therefore be with a wide range of hands, thinking that your draw did not come through.

What if he has 88, JJ, T9, KQ, QJ, QT? You may still be ahead on the river, but you could have easily moved him off these hands by being the aggressor on the flop or turn.

Hand 2 -- From the flop on, you called and lost $205. Next time, when he leads with $55 on the flop, what about immediately raising something like $80 or $90 more? If he re-raises, fold, because you can assume AA or a set. (I would probably assume a set.) If he calls and leads on the turn, same assumptions. This way, you would lose only your $80-90 raise, rather than calling all of his bets for $205.

Hand 3 -- Pre-flop and flop you are fine. On the turn, with 15 outs you are a 2 to 1 dog, plus you may be drawing to the second best flush, plus you may be drawing dead except for the 6/images/graemlins/club.gif if villian already has a full house. I would fold to the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok - thanks for the thought out response -

Hand 1 - I agree I should've bet out on flop but I don't think Villain's range of hands is quite as wide as you seem to suggest. I think JJ or AA - what really screwed me up in Hand 1 is that it occurred not long after Hand 2. So when I got re-raised PF again holding KK, I kind of froze up, immediately figured AA and went into defensive mode. In retrosect his reraise was on the smaller side so I think he could've easily had JJ - AA, KK or QQ are also very possible.
One of the downsides of multitabling is sometimes I will take what happened in one hand into another hand.

Hand 2 - Raising $90 on top of his $55 would've lost me $145 instead of $205.
I played a hand yesterday where AGAIN, I had KK and my opponent had AA - he led $40 on the flop and I minraised him - it scared him enough to check it down the rest of the way. But of course I still lost the hand. /images/graemlins/frown.gif