QJs in LP...too weak?

[benkath1]

Pacific .25/.50 10 handed

OK, I've got QJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif in LP1

first position folds, all call to CO

CO raises and small blind folds

All 8 of us call (15 SB in pot)

Should I have raised preflop, or 3 bet his raise or am I right to just call?

Flop 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 /images/graemlins/club.gif

all check to raiser in CO and he bets,

mp2 folds and LP2 folds and here we go. (10 bb IN POT)

TURN 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Check to CO and button raises him, EP calls, one fold and I 3 bet and get 3 callers. (22 BB in pot)

WTF does that mean?
At this point I don't see anybody going anywhere.

river J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Oh great, JJ?

Check, I bet, CO raises, Button 3 bets, I????

[@bsolute_luck]

okay, i'll give a try. yes, raise preflop. suited connected high cards is worth a reraise.

i'm putting CO on 3 of a kind, maybe 2 pair, maybe 3 of kind, but not full house. however, the button might have limpishly played his pocket 9s and found a boat. i'm calling.

[Shillx]

Raise preflop.

I would bet the flop the way the hand went down.

Brad

[dkernler]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the flop the way the hand went down.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Or were you just kidding - like because you know the 9 is coming.

It just seems that two overcards (not particularly strong) and a GSD does not make for a bet here.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
It just seems that two overcards (not particularly strong) and a GSD does not make for a bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only would a bet be approprite here, but I think it is manditory.

Brad

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]

Not only would a bet be approprite here, but I think it is manditory.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you care to elaborate on that some? Would it be mandatory because i didn't raise preflop, or because of my position?
I usually only witness hands like this after folding, and just realized I need to know how to handle it.
Thanks, Ben

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Not only would a bet be approprite here, but I think it is manditory.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a gutshot to the nuts and 2 overcards

Would you care to elaborate on that some? Would it be mandatory because i didn't raise preflop, or because of my position?
I usually only witness hands like this after folding, and just realized I need to know how to handle it.
Thanks, Ben

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop you have a gutshot to the nuts and 2 overcards. Your hand is worth at least 6 outs, and you have an equity of around 25%. Against 7 (?) opponents, your equity edge is huge and you should bet/raise for value alone.

[vulturesrow]

Reasons to bet:

1) Its a big pot already, do what you can to take it down.
2) No one has shown any agression, so its quite possible your hand is actually best at this point.
3) Betting may clean up some of your overcard outs.

[ArturiusX]

Because a heap of hands now beat you?

JJ, any set, 89, and KQ all beat you.

All of them would be played similarly throughout the hand, its not worth the 2 bets.

[benkath1]

How could I have a gutshot to the nuts with a paired board?

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
How could I have a gutshot to the nuts with a paired board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gutshot to the nut straight.

[benkath1]

so make em prove to me they have me beat...right?
sorry for the dumb questions, just trying to improve.

[GrunchCan]

No, they probably do have you beat. But there are 7 people in the hand. You will win more than your fair share (1 seventh of the time is your fair share) with this hand becasue your draws will come in more frequently than that. So you should be getting value out of the flop by betting or raising.

Pot equity is a very fundamental, and rather difficult concept to understand. But its critical that you understand it if you want to play winning poker. "Small Stakes Holdem" (http://twoplustwo.com/books.html#Small%20Stakes%20Hold'em) by Ed Miller (a poster on this board) is an excellent book to learn about Pot Equity and many other key concepts. I'd suggest you read it ASAP.

[benkath1]

read it...yes
understand it...working on it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I will study more.

while on the equity subject. what about fold equity? with a pot that big, do I have any?

thanks for your time.

[GrunchCan]

I posted something earlier today describing what fold equity is. Did you read that? I'll find a link if you like.

See, here's the thing about fold equity in big pots. The bigger the pot gets, the better odds you offer your opponents with a bet. In this case, if the pot is 15 bets, then a bet by you offfers pot odds of 16:1 to the first caller! Pretty huge odds! There are very few hands that would be correct to fold in that case. So even if your opponent has a terrible hand with a terrible draw, they should still call your bet.

So in this case, no. I don't think you have virtually any fold equity at all.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I will study more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep at it. SSH is a much bigger book than the page count would indicate. I have already read mine 6 times. WHen I read it for the 4th time, I felt like I finally "got it." But I still learn something new each time I read it.

Bring your questions to the forum.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
There are very few hands that would be correct to fold in that case. So even if your opponent has a terrible hand with a terrible draw, they should still call your bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

i guess thats the part i'm not getting. how the hell do you protect your hand with a pot that big and a bunch of calling stations?

i think i'm running scared, on a downswing and that is affecting my decisions too. seems like everytime i make a value bet, someone is there to call me down with bottom pair. Oh well, that's what we want right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
ow the hell do you protect your hand with a pot that big and a bunch of calling stations?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you can't protect your hand at all. Sometimes you need to just bet your good hands for value, and check & call with your draws until you get to the end. If there are any "always" in poker, it is these: Its always good to have position, and the size of the pot is always important.

[benkath1]

Thanks man. Appreciate your help.
Love the avatar too.