Folding QQ??

[gorgeous]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (14.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

River: (20.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Qs Qc (two pair, queens and fives).
MP2 has 3s 4c (straight, five high).
MP3 has Kc Ks (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: MP2 wins 23.75 BB. </font>

MP2 is 71%/0%/0.53 (18 hands) and MP3 is 55%/9%/0.56 (11 hands). Fold this on the turn/river?

[macdaddy991]

Add MP2 to your buddy list. You were unfortuneate to be up against KK when you had QQ.

[Isura]

I don't think there are any starting hands that I play that I would ever fold for 1 bet getting 20 to 1 on the river at this level. And make a quick note about MP2. This is all you need to write:
[censored] fish /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dead]

After his atrocious double cold call preflop, MP2 actually played the rest of the hand mostly correct. He had odds to call from the flop on.

[itsmesteve]

as i myself have been told plenty of times, don't rely on reads that are only composed of a handful of hands. i think you played the hand fine.
its tough to read someone who is just calling, and MP3 3 betting preflop makes me think there's no way he's got a 5. if i had to guess, i woulda put MP2 on a smallish pp. you've gotta call the river. GOT TO.

[Niediam]

I wouldn't have folded at any point.

[SlantNGo]

I would call down after the flop raise.

[ErrantNight]

you can't overcall this river.

[ErrantNight]

there's no way you should call this river.

[ErrantNight]

you should fold on this river. you're beat. you're not good 1:20.

[Niediam]

Verses two very loose players at .5/1? I think Hero will win a good 1:15 here.

[ErrantNight]

did you not notice or are you simply ignoring the fact that they're bothing incredibly passive and MP2 just woke up on the river when a flush came in and MP3, even if he's loose, is representing: AA, KK, QQ, or AK, and you only chop against one of those hands, and it's the least likely. maybe on a dream day he'll be overplaying AQ or JJ... but he's almost certainly got you beaten when that A falls. he's passive postflop. he may play too many hands, but he plays them passively after flop ( I'd still call him down headsup).

[ErrantNight]

better yet, what do you think MP3 3-bets the turn with w/ a post flop aggression of .53 that you're ahead of when an A drops on this river?

let alone when an equally passive player wakes up and bets INTO someone who's capped the flop and led the turn when a significant draw and a significant overcard just came in.

[dkernler]

[ QUOTE ]
as i myself have been told plenty of times, don't rely on reads that are only composed of a handful of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Zoelef]

I play this the same.

You're probably screwed here, but at the same time, this IS PartyPoker. I would have put MP2 on Ace-Broadway sooted, but since it's 34o he goes right to the "Do not pass go, do not collect 20% max $100" list.

[ErrantNight]

as you should have been told plenty of times... don't absolutely ignore hand reading.

a passive opponent calling all the way hits the only draw they could be chasing. or, they could be chasing overcards, and the only significant overcard to be afraid of just hit.

also, another opponent capped the flop and raised you on the turn after going to war preflop, meaning you can narrow his range of hands (since even from a small sample size he's not a maniac lag) to a select few, almost all of which beat you horribly by the river.

you simply CAN NOT overcall here.

yes, i know it's a big pot. no, you're not good here nearly often enough to justify this call.

[Niediam]

Yes, I understand how unlikely it is that Hero has the best hand. But I also understand that if Hero has the best hand a mere 5% of the time he profits by the call.

[AlmightyJay]

I would probably fold this turn. MP3 most likely has aces. When he caps the flop, there's no way I think I'm ahead.

[Entity]

The river is a pretty easy fold.

There's also no way I'm leading the turn.

Rob

[ErrantNight]

he doesn't. and it's not close.

[ErrantNight]

i will offer this caveat: if folding here means you will make INCORRECT folds in large pots in the future then this call is ok, only because you need to work on hand reading.

but if you are routinely making blind calls on the river when there is simply NO WAY you are ahead, that's a pretty big leak.

and realize... up against two loose opponents with that hand and those cards on the board is NOT always a river fold... the betting action narrows their possible holdings to such an extent that it's positively ludicrous to call this river.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
he doesn't. and it's not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify:

Doesn't what? Profit or have the best hand 5% of the time?

[ErrantNight]

have the best hand 5% of the time. and therefore... he doesn't profit.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
have the best hand 5% of the time. and therefore... he doesn't profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. I read your original post and thought you were saying "Hero doesn't profit if he has the best hand 5% of the time." I knew that couldn't be what you meant, but lots of people might get confused.

[SlantNGo]

Didn't even look at the river /images/graemlins/smile.gif Saw the flop 3-bet and turn lead and immediately commented on that... I agree, an overcall here is poor.

[ QUOTE ]
there's no way you should call this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[waynethetrain]

MP3's call on the river makes it highly probable he had pocket KKs after all that previous aggression. I think I would have called his flop raise and then probably called down - but only because the pot was so big. I wouldn't have re-raised the flop. There are very fews hands that MP3 would play so aggressively pre flop and then so aggressively on the flop except AA and KK - maybe if you are lucky or he is silly JJ. That flop doesn't warrant a lot of aggression unless he's got a big pocket pair.

I think you should have guessed it was very likely you were beaten as soon as he raised the flop and certainly when he capped. From there it's a matter of "how certain" you are and do you want to call down or take a hike. I think calling down is OK in this sized pot.

What was MP2 doing in there? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[kapw7]

Agree that always call when HU. But in my (limited) experience in micro-limit, people often bluff when a scare A card comes at the river. For example, if 10% of the times one player is bluffing and 50% of times you are ahead of the other player (given his action and general passiveness he probably has AA, KK, QQ) then (IF my math is right) you are correct to call a 20:1 pot. So I don't think it is an easy fold. (but not an easy call as well).

Another question: What would you do if you had KK instead?