A Bunch Of Hands Where I Raised and Folded to a Cap Preflop [Archive]

sthief09

03-09-2005, 02:27 PM

I included results to show how bad shape I was in each time. all these hands happened in my last 6k. I dumped the postflop play because it was too distracting

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 1 fold, SB caps, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Results in white below: 
SB has Qc Ks (straight, ace high).
CO has As Td (full house, aces full of tens).
Outcome: CO wins 11.53 BB. 

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
7 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB caps, Hero folds, SB calls.
Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Ac Js (full house, sixes full of aces).
BB has Qd Qs (full house, sixes full of queens).
Outcome: SB wins 9 BB. 

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
6 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, BB caps, Hero folds, SB calls.
No showdown. BB wins 5.50 BB. 

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB caps, Hero folds, SB calls.

Results in white below: 
SB has Ac Ts (one pair, aces).
BB has As Kc (one pair, aces).
Outcome: BB wins 12 BB. 

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
6 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB caps, Hero folds, SB calls.

Results in white below: 
BB has Kc Ac (one pair, jacks).
SB has Th Ks (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: BB wins 10 BB.

Evan

03-09-2005, 02:30 PM

First 3 are really easy, I might pause for a second on the last 2 but I like folds.

bakku

03-09-2005, 02:32 PM

I think they're all pretty easy

MarkD

03-09-2005, 02:34 PM

Ok, I thought this was happening to you a lot after you had raised in EP. I think these are all standard folds and I think these hands will give the lower stakes players an idea of just what kind of situations they can find themselves in in the 15 game. The 15 game is not as easy as it's made out to be on these forums.

Also, now a days I would not play Hand 3. A5o is not enough for me to steal with very often now adays.

Hand 4 is a hand that I have played similarly many times in the past and it was my default play. Lately I have been leaning towards folding in this spot though. If the table has been passive (it happens) I do limp with it sometimes. I do not believe that I have had much success raising with Axs from mid-position.

sfer

03-09-2005, 02:38 PM

There was one at the Borg where you opened one off the hijack, edtost 3-bet on the button and I capped from the BB. Don't remember what you had but my AQ high beat his A-high.

partygirluk

03-09-2005, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think they're all pretty easy

[/ QUOTE ]

sthief09

03-09-2005, 02:41 PM

a lot of my looser raises are read dependent. I'm sure there were some tight players behind me in my A4s hand, because that's not a standard raise for me by any means.

sthief09

03-09-2005, 02:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There was one at the Borg where you opened one off the hijack, edtost 3-bet on the button and I capped from the BB. Don't remember what you had but my AQ high beat his A-high.

[/ QUOTE ]

ironically I had exactly 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Redeye

03-09-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, now a days I would not play Hand 3. A5o is not enough for me to steal with very often now adays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm a little suprised by this, ever since I started playing a little 5/10 6max I've been stealing a little more with these types of aces in the CO, and more suited varieties in MP2,MP3. I always figured than when its down to the last 4-5 players that my ace probably was more often than no the best hand going in.

Is this comment specific to the 15/30 or would you not steal with these types of hands at 3/6 full or 5/10 full?

applej25

03-09-2005, 03:09 PM

So are steals so common at this level that hands like A-10 and K-Q are 3-betting and/or capping? Just seems rather astonishing to me.

IndieMatty

03-09-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So are steals so common at this level that hands like A-10 and K-Q are 3-betting and/or capping? Just seems rather astonishing to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the blind wars are perhaps the toughest part of this game.

applej25

03-09-2005, 03:17 PM

good to know

sthief09

03-09-2005, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, now a days I would not play Hand 3. A5o is not enough for me to steal with very often now adays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm a little suprised by this, ever since I started playing a little 5/10 6max I've been stealing a little more with these types of aces in the CO, and more suited varieties in MP2,MP3. I always figured than when its down to the last 4-5 players that my ace probably was more often than no the best hand going in.

Is this comment specific to the 15/30 or would you not steal with these types of hands at 3/6 full or 5/10 full?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think at 5/10 6-max you should play even tighter with blind steals. with smaller blinds your steal equity is much less.

Entity

03-09-2005, 03:36 PM

All of these looks standard except the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/heart.gif hand. I'd muck that preflop most of the time, but if you had reads that said you'd be likely to get away with a steal it isn't bad.

The thing about that hand that I don't care much for is that it would seem that the SB and BB are defending a very high portion of the time in this game (and correctly), and even with Ace-high and position, your hand isn't that much of a favorite 3-way.

Rob

PokerBob

03-09-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think these hands will give the lower stakes players an idea of just what kind of situations they can find themselves in in the 15 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

But aren't these just situations where hero has run into some big hands, nothing more? I would expect the action to be similar at 3/6.

sthief09

03-09-2005, 03:56 PM

that would be true except that I'd say the players defend their SB almost as much as they do in 15/30.

also, my hand doesn't need to be much of a favorite for it to be profitable. I have initiative, which means my folding equity is very high.

sthief09

03-09-2005, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think these hands will give the lower stakes players an idea of just what kind of situations they can find themselves in in the 15 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

But aren't these just situations where hero has run into some big hands, nothing more? I would expect the action to be similar at 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

look how many times that's happened to me in the last 6k hands

PokerBob

03-09-2005, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think these hands will give the lower stakes players an idea of just what kind of situations they can find themselves in in the 15 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

But aren't these just situations where hero has run into some big hands, nothing more? I would expect the action to be similar at 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

look how many times that's happened to me in the last 6k hands

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It sucks, but I got the impression that Mark D. was suggesting that 15/30 tends to be much tougher/tricker than the lower limits. I don't doubt that for a minute, but these instances just look like shitty luck to me as opposed to crafty play.

sthief09

03-09-2005, 04:05 PM

my EP raise was 3-bet by KQo, and another raise was 3-bet by ATo. at 3/6 they'd be more apt to call with these hands, which makes my life a lot easier. at 15/30, I'm out of position without the intiative and I'll be folding probably 3/5 of flops

MarkD

03-09-2005, 04:06 PM

Pokerbob,

I didn't look at the results of the hands here. I posted what I did above because I do believe the players are trickier/tougher than at the lower limits and this is the reason that the above situations happen so much more often in the 15 game. It's entire meta-game thing that makes this situation more common in the 15 game. What I mean is that the game is very agressive and the agressiveness breeds agressiveness and you will see these types of plays made when your opponents do not hold really strong hands.

Look at the post that Nate made in the thread by sfer where he states that he would sometiems cap it from the BB with 77 in the right situation. Nate would be very unlikely to make that play in the 3/6 game because of the necessary differences in how the game is played day in day out.

My original statement was not meant to reflect these 5 hands taken in a vacuum.

PokerBob

03-09-2005, 04:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerbob,

I didn't look at the results of the hands here. I posted what I did above because I do believe the players are trickier/tougher than at the lower limits and this is the reason that the above situations happen so much more often in the 15 game. It's entire meta-game thing that makes this situation more common in the 15 game. What I mean is that the game is very agressive and the agressiveness breeds agressiveness and you will see these types of plays made when your opponents do not hold really strong hands.

Look at the post that Nate made in the thread by sfer where he states that he would sometiems cap it from the BB with 77 in the right situation. Nate would be very unlikely to make that play in the 3/6 game because of the necessary differences in how the game is played day in day out.

My original statement was not meant to reflect these 5 hands taken in a vacuum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your point. I only play 2/4, 3/6, so perhaps I am way out of my leauge, but I learn by making a fool of myself, so here goes.

In one hand, hero open raises in EP with KJo and gets 3-bet by ATo. This clearly is an aggressive line to take with ATo. My question is this; is this guy playing well, or is this move foolish considering his holding and the initial raiser's position. Clearly sthief09 is no moron (I am assuming villain has some read on hero), and is not going to raise from EP with weak holding like KJo /images/graemlins/blush.gif, so what can villain be hoping to accomlish? Is he not setting himslef up for major domination?

I see people 3-bet with ATo at 2/4 and 3/6, but I call them retarded, not aggressive. I guess I'm just confused. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

PokerBob

03-09-2005, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my EP raise was 3-bet by KQo, and another raise was 3-bet by ATo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think KQo capped from the SB with at least 3 opponents /images/graemlins/blush.gif. At what point does it stop being aggression and start being chip-spewing? This is what I am having a hard time differentiating. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Entity

03-09-2005, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
that would be true except that I'd say the players defend their SB almost as much as they do in 15/30.

also, my hand doesn't need to be much of a favorite for it to be profitable. I have initiative, which means my folding equity is very high.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't necessarily disagree, but is your folding equity really that high? I think I'd rather open with a hand that is going to hit a lot of flops here that A4s, but I don't think it's terrible.

And I agree that you don't need that much of an edge, but you really don't have that much of an edge here. A4s is about as good, equity wise, as Q9s or K8s in this situation (40% edge against two random hands). I might open here with Q9s in some games but I doubt I'm opening with K8s.

If we're just going by straight steal opportunity, I don't think it's a bad open, but when we're considering flop/turn play and action, I don't care much for hands like these. I like hands that have a bit more ability to dance around postflop -- hands that combine big pot abilities with folding equity. If I open with T9s here, I've got folding equity+ the ability to hit a big flop if I get played back at; I think I'm hitting a lot less flops super hard with A4s, so I'm much more reliant on my ability to win a small pot due to position and initiative.

Did any of that make sense? I'm all doped up on Sudafed right now and my head is dizzy.

Rob

sthief09

03-09-2005, 05:02 PM

yeah, as I said before, A4s is not even close to standard there. I do think there's something you're overlooking. a lot of the time, the action goes check-call, check-call, check-check. A4s is a lot better than Q9s in those spots. you'll often chop with a bigger A and you beat KQ. I'd prefer JTs there but not by that much. I think ace-wheel-suited are good stealing hands.

I think T9s and A4s here are close. a pair of aces is obviously stronger than a pair of tens. an ace high flush beats a ten high flush. I can save a bet against a guy who's committed to check-calling, because I might want to take a stab with T9s on a draw heavy board, whereas with Ax, I can be content with a showdown. I think this makes up for the terrible kicker and inability to flop an OESD.

I will see a surprisingly high amount of showdowns with this hand. there are certain boards where my opponent will be semibluffing more often than not.

QTip

03-09-2005, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
a lot of my looser raises are read dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one that really took me back was in hand 1.

Redeye

03-09-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think at 5/10 6-max you should play even tighter with blind steals. with smaller blinds your steal equity is much less.

[/ QUOTE ]

sthief,

This is kind of off-topic here so I apologize, but does this mean you wouldn't often steal with things like A5o, A6o, A4o from the CO in the 5/10 6max game?

Entity

03-09-2005, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a lot of my looser raises are read dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one that really took me back was in hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand #1 is an easy raise.

Rob

MarkD

03-09-2005, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The one that really took me back was in hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah, I didn't really notice Sthief's absolute position in this hand but I would fold KJo there, not raise it. If the table conditions were just right I can see a raise (ie. the table is playing especially tight and sthief has good control over his right hand opponent and feels it is a good spot to isolate from early position). Certainly this is not standard.

MarkD

03-09-2005, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1 is an easy raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

One opponent has folded, one opponent has called and we have KJo. We are essentially in early position with KJo. When did this raise become standard and how come I missed the memo?

sthief09

03-09-2005, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think at 5/10 6-max you should play even tighter with blind steals. with smaller blinds your steal equity is much less.

[/ QUOTE ]

sthief,

This is kind of off-topic here so I apologize, but does this mean you wouldn't often steal with things like A5o, A6o, A4o from the CO in the 5/10 6max game?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, I wouldn't

sthief09

03-09-2005, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a lot of my looser raises are read dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one that really took me back was in hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

if I remember correctly the EP limper in hand 1 had a VPIP of like 60. again, not a standard raise. I isolate a ton.

Entity

03-09-2005, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1 is an easy raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

One opponent has folded, one opponent has called and we have KJo. We are essentially in early position with KJo. When did this raise become standard and how come I missed the memo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mark,

I dunno, it seems pretty standard to me. We've got one limper (I'm assuming it's someone Josh wants to isolate, because otherwise the raise makes no sense), we're in middle position with a decent-to-good hand and it's 9-handed. I don't know if you're of the KQo UTG raising camp, but if you are, I can't see how KJo is a fold here.

Rob

sthief09

03-09-2005, 05:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(I'm assuming it's someone Josh wants to isolate, because otherwise the raise makes no sense)

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely correct

MarkD

03-09-2005, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At what point does it stop being aggression and start being chip-spewing? This is what I am having a hard time differentiating.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be agressive and chip spewing at the same time. That doesn't make it easy to play against and it doesn't make me want to step out and put a lot of money in the pot with weak holdings.

[ QUOTE ]
In one hand, hero open raises in EP with KJo and gets 3-bet by ATo. This clearly is an aggressive line to take with ATo. My question is this; is this guy playing well, or is this move foolish considering his holding and the initial raiser's position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said that the opponents have to be playing well. Agressive does not equate to being solid or good and in the example above there is a fine line between whether the guy is playing good or foolish (most likely foolish) but there is no doubt that he is agressively defending his blinds and that's what I'm talking about. You see a lot less of this kind of play at the other games. And this guy may play his ATo better post flop then the guy at 3/6.

There is a big difference between seeing this play once every few days or weeks and seeing it a few times a session with hands that are walking a thin line like ATo. I was just trying to make a general statement about how the 15 game plays hyper-agressive at times and the strange situations you can find yourself in.

I'm certainly not trying to quantify the difference between the limits on this small sample of hands.

QTip

03-09-2005, 05:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I isolate a ton.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've tried this, but it doesn't seem like it takes long for people to start catching on and coming back at me from LP. Does this happen to you.

MarkD

03-09-2005, 05:29 PM

OK, I'm going to admit that I'm confusing myself a little here. To me there is a difference between a simple standard hand to raise (like KQo UTG) and an isolation play (like raising a loose passive opponent with KJo while in early to early middle position).

So I don't feel that the raise is "easy". It may certainly be the correct play for the situation but I don't want to be quoted next week when random_small_stakes_poster_01 posts a hand where he raises with KJo in EP and says it's a standard raise.

Based on your last post I actually think we are on the same page. I have made this raise in the past but it's not standard for me. If the limper was a typical 30/10 opponent I would probably fold KJo here because I wouldn't want to isolate and I wouldn't want to play in a big pot out of position with KJo. That's what I was trying to get at.

Entity

03-09-2005, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Based on your last post I actually think we are on the same page. I have made this raise in the past but it's not standard for me. If the limper was a typical 30/10 opponent I would probably fold KJo here because I wouldn't want to isolate and I wouldn't want to play in a big pot out of position with KJo. That's what I was trying to get at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, I agree with you 100%. I just trust Josh enough to know that if he's raising KJo here, it's because the limper is badbadbad. He's folding against any non-donkish players here, and I think isolating is fine.

It's one of those situations where I don't think folding is terrible, but I like isolating bad opponents, because even if the rest of the table knows what I'm doing, they're going to have to have something decent, on the average, to make a play back -- because they've got both me and a calling station to contend with.

There are times where based on my table image, this is an easy raise, and times where it's better that I fold, because I'm starting to look like an action junkie. But on the whole, anyone who looks at the hand and is really confused by the raise is missing out on some key elements that should be pretty obvious. Maybe Josh should say upfront that the limper is a 60/10 guy, but I don't think he has to say that for us to say the raise is fine, and the fold for two more is fine.

Rob

MarkD

03-09-2005, 05:40 PM

I agree with everything you said but the original poster that you were responding to didn't understand the raise with KJo there so I think he needed to be told that it was an isolation play and not a standard play. Just saying,
"This is an easy raise" doesn't do that. That's all. I don't think I worded my responses correctly either initially.

Entity

03-09-2005, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with everything you said but the original poster that you were responding to didn't understand the raise with KJo there so I think he needed to be told that it was an isolation play and not a standard play. Just saying,
"This is an easy raise" doesn't do that. That's all. I don't think I worded my responses correctly either initially.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I was too short with my original wording as well. It's an interesting ipso facto argument, I guess, but I suppose I trust Josh's play that much. The raise is correct because the raise was made. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It probably would have been better if I would have said why the raise was correct, but I hope that people who read my advice wonder why, and then think about it for themselves, rather than raising KJo in EP the next time they see it.

Rob

PokerBob

03-09-2005, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At what point does it stop being aggression and start being chip-spewing? This is what I am having a hard time differentiating.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be agressive and chip spewing at the same time. That doesn't make it easy to play against and it doesn't make me want to step out and put a lot of money in the pot with weak holdings.

[ QUOTE ]
In one hand, hero open raises in EP with KJo and gets 3-bet by ATo. This clearly is an aggressive line to take with ATo. My question is this; is this guy playing well, or is this move foolish considering his holding and the initial raiser's position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said that the opponents have to be playing well. Agressive does not equate to being solid or good and in the example above there is a fine line between whether the guy is playing good or foolish (most likely foolish) but there is no doubt that he is agressively defending his blinds and that's what I'm talking about. You see a lot less of this kind of play at the other games. And this guy may play his ATo better post flop then the guy at 3/6.

There is a big difference between seeing this play once every few days or weeks and seeing it a few times a session with hands that are walking a thin line like ATo. I was just trying to make a general statement about how the 15 game plays hyper-agressive at times and the strange situations you can find yourself in.

I'm certainly not trying to quantify the difference between the limits on this small sample of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy with ATo 3-bet from the CO.

PokerBob

03-09-2005, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a lot of my looser raises are read dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one that really took me back was in hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand #1 is an easy raise.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it an easier muck?

MarkD

03-09-2005, 06:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The guy with ATo 3-bet from the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it matter? It has little to do with the point I'm making.

PokerBob

03-09-2005, 06:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At what point does it stop being aggression and start being chip-spewing? This is what I am having a hard time differentiating.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be agressive and chip spewing at the same time. That doesn't make it easy to play against and it doesn't make me want to step out and put a lot of money in the pot with weak holdings.

[ QUOTE ]
In one hand, hero open raises in EP with KJo and gets 3-bet by ATo. This clearly is an aggressive line to take with ATo. My question is this; is this guy playing well, or is this move foolish considering his holding and the initial raiser's position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said that the opponents have to be playing well. Agressive does not equate to being solid or good and in the example above there is a fine line between whether the guy is playing good or foolish (most likely foolish) but there is no doubt that he is agressively defending his blinds and that's what I'm talking about. You see a lot less of this kind of play at the other games. And this guy may play his ATo better post flop then the guy at 3/6.

There is a big difference between seeing this play once every few days or weeks and seeing it a few times a session with hands that are walking a thin line like ATo. I was just trying to make a general statement about how the 15 game plays hyper-agressive at times and the strange situations you can find yourself in.

I'm certainly not trying to quantify the difference between the limits on this small sample of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your point. Thanks.

Entity

03-09-2005, 06:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a lot of my looser raises are read dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]

The one that really took me back was in hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand #1 is an easy raise.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it an easier muck?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread my posts other than the one-line snippet. I think a raise is fine.

Rob

Michael Davis

03-09-2005, 06:36 PM

What happened, Barney's Kiddy Hour get canceled?

-Michael

sthief09

03-09-2005, 06:39 PM

if you're going to insult me, at least make it so I can understand and be hurt by it

Michael Davis

03-09-2005, 06:41 PM

"be hurt by it"

I seriously doubt (and hope) that I cannot do this.

-Michael

SomethingClever

03-09-2005, 07:08 PM

I had one of these today that I couldn't drop.

AJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif from EP.

I raise, LP 3-bets, CO caps. I call /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Flop: 8A8 one /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check (with the intention of raising), LP bets, CO raises, I call /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Check, check, bet, call, call.

River: Z /images/graemlins/club.gif

Check, check, bet, call, call.

Preflop capper had AA. Should I have folded preflop?

sthief09

03-09-2005, 07:22 PM

offended?

will you be free next tues or wed?

Nate tha' Great

03-09-2005, 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I included results to show how bad shape I was in each time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like you're making an FTOP mistake by folding in all of the examples that you gave.

Chris Daddy Cool

03-09-2005, 07:55 PM

ooooooooh! nate burns josh again!

sthief09

03-09-2005, 07:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I included results to show how bad shape I was in each time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like you're making an FTOP mistake by folding in all of the examples that you gave.

[/ QUOTE ]

just because my pot odds might have been justifying it doesn't mean it would've been right to call, does it?. I'm not goign to see 5 cards. the majority of the time, I'll see 3. I'm also facing reverse implied odds, being out of position and having a difficult time judging whether I'm ahead.

does that mean you'd ahve called in some/all of these situations?

Nate tha' Great

03-09-2005, 08:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ooooooooh! nate burns josh again!

[/ QUOTE ]

I just almost never fold here so I'm trying to make myself feel better. I was doing it more for awhile but there were too many times when I'd make this play with like AJo and it turns out that it would have won at showdown unimproved. Basically I need a real chitty hand and also either one of the raisers to be very tight, or both of them to be fairly tight. I'm certainly not folding anything suited for example.

Elizabeth

03-09-2005, 09:06 PM

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So are steals so common at this level that hands like A-10 and K-Q are 3-betting and/or capping? Just seems rather astonishing to me.

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Yes, the blind wars are perhaps the toughest part of this game.

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Shouldn't it regulate itself? I mean, if KQ is a common 3 bet then doesn't ABC preflop poker have a HUGE advantage in these games? Wouldn't that mean that people stop doing it?

gaming_mouse

03-09-2005, 09:20 PM

Josh,

Only one I don't get is the A5o raise. Why didn't you muck that?

bernie

03-10-2005, 02:23 AM

This raise depends heavily on the likely action behind it. You're in Early MP. Lots can happen behind you. This isn't like an Iso raise from LP. If opponents have been calling alot of raises behind you, this is a fold. You don't want to see any coldcallers before the button here.

I fold this preflop in this spot. Unless I think I can get it HU or 3 way at best (BB coming in)

KJo is much different than KQo

b

bernie

03-10-2005, 02:27 AM

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Maybe Josh should say upfront that the limper is a 60/10 guy, but I don't think he has to say that for us to say the raise is fine, and the fold for two more is fine.

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I think he ought to put in the profile of the players behind him instead of just the limper. Those are the guys you should be more worried about when raising here. It seems you're forgetting the rest of the table and just looking at the limper. You have alot of people behind you here to worry about.

This is far from a 'standard' raise.

b

The Dude

03-10-2005, 02:31 AM

I haven't read anybody else's responses, but there's no way in hell I'm folding KTo or QJo on the button after open-raising - especially not where the betting is capped at 4.