Hand Quiz

[Scuba Chuck]

Thought of this in the shower this morning (all my best thinking is done in the shower).

It's five handed. It's time for you to "make a move." Let's say the table looks like this.

Blinds (100/200)
UTG (HERO) 700
CO 2300
Button 2000
SB 1500
BB 1500

Next hand, blinds increase to 150/300. (just to make things real tight)

Please rank the following hands in the order you'd prefer to push with:

A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (A3o)
2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (22)
T /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif (TJs)
K /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif (KJo)

Edit: Also, what range of hands would you put any potential callers on?

[whynot?]

1.tj 2. kjo 3. 22 4. ax

rationale - clearly hoping to pull the pot without one or more calls, but with four still to act i'd rather play the hands that if called by multiples have the least chance of being dominated. Think thats the order.

you could argue deuces ahead of KJ but kj gives a str8 draw and a decent chance at high pair if one hits.

How'd i do?

[Bigwig]

1. A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (A3o)
2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (22)
K /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif (KJo)

4. T /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif (TJs)

The first three hands are almost identical for their value in this situation vs. the likely range of calling hands. JTs is the only one that is slightly less, IMO. And it's only about 3% pot equity or so. I'm pushing all 4 of these in this scenario, BTW.

[Allinlife]

TJ/KJ/22/AX

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pushing all 4 of these in this scenario, BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree here. I just didn't want any discussion/blasts on "This is not a pushing hand, IMO."

[ZebraAss]

1. Ax
2. TJ
3. KJ
4. 22

[The Yugoslavian]

My gut says:
KJ
22
TJ
A3

Although I'm pushing with all/any of them here.

Yugoslav

[jg22]

1. TJs
2. KJo
3. 22
4. A3o

My reasoning for putting #4 last is that a lot of people will call with Ax in this situation and x is very likely > 3. I think the JTs will give you the max number of live outs if you are called, since I think its safe to assume that with any of these hands, if called, we will be behind.

[sofere]

My thought would be KJ, 22, TJ, A3.

I hate A3 because your most likely dominated by anyone who calls you. Your 1:1 odds your a coinflip or dominated by a caller.

TJs does well if pot becomes multiway (its also pretty and sooooted).

KJ just seems like the best hand to me.

[Bigwig]

I'm shocked at the value people are giving JTs. This hand is great in a multi-way pot where you can hit a big and/or disguised hand (two pair, flush, straight). This is a push/likely heads-up scenario. You are ABSOLUTELY going to be dominated more often with JT.

I mean, push JT ahead of KJ???? Hello??????

[The Yugoslavian]

I think you will dominated less here with JT than with A3.

IMO and off the cuff. I haven't run any sims on this...

Yugoslav
Who likes KJ *much* better than JT b/c then you'll actually be dominating some of the hands calling you...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm shocked at the value people are giving JTs. This hand is great in a multi-way pot where you can hit a big and/or disguised hand (two pair, flush, straight). This is a push/likely heads-up scenario. You are ABSOLUTELY going to be dominated more often with JT.

I mean, push JT ahead of KJ???? Hello??????

[/ QUOTE ]

thankyou...also, KJ as the best hand here? explain...

22
a3
kj
jt

why be tricky about this question...theyre all very similar and happily pushable

[Scuba Chuck]

This post is turning out better than I hoped!

Don't forget to answer part two of this question.

What should we use as the calling range?

I will do all the math work when we come to some conclusion on part two of this question.

[jg22]

To me it has to do with what is going to call you, since you want to have 2 live high cards if called, and I think JTs are most likely of those hands to be 2 live cards, but KJo is very close as well.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
To me it has to do with what is going to call you, since you want to have 2 live high cards if called, and I think JTs are most likely of those hands to be 2 live cards, but KJo is very close as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thinking here is flawed. KJ and JT share a card. Do you now see the logical error?

EDIT--I'm not sure it's a 'logical' error. Just an error. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sofere]

Obviously very read/buy-in dependent. Might I suggest rephrasing the question to what would/should you call with if the situation were reversed.

My thoughts:
CO AA-QQ
SB AA-TT, AK-AQ
BB AA-88, AK-AJ, KQs(?)

[pooh74]

BTW...i based my answers on 1 caller which i think is so much more likely in this case...multi callers here will be < 5% of the time i'd imagine.

I think range of calling hands depends on who we are talking about, button, sb, or bb. BB will have a wider range possibly given his odds, sb will have the tightest range given his odds and stack size...and of course this all depends on if button folds...so by throwing a range of calls out there without thinking about these other things is like working in a vacuum.

[UMTerp]

sofere, that's way too tight, especially for the big blind - he's getting 2:1 on his call.

[whynot?]

amen

at least on the 30's my perspective on what gets called

co - a9 or higher, kq and maybe kj, virtually any pair above 6
sb - any ace with seven or above, kq and kj and kts, any pair
bb - any ace, kq - kt, any pair

not saying this is right, but this is often what happens.

[jg22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To me it has to do with what is going to call you, since you want to have 2 live high cards if called, and I think JTs are most likely of those hands to be 2 live cards, but KJo is very close as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thinking here is flawed. KJ and JT share a card. Do you now see the logical error?

EDIT--I'm not sure it's a 'logical' error. Just an error. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your point, and it certainly is a good one. My thinking was that the T would be more likely to be a live card than the K, but now I am swaying in the direction of putting KJ first and JT second. Incidentally, I agree that all 4 of these hands are easy pushes given the situation. (Why is it that I usually end up with 52o when I am in these situations myself?)

Lets say you are the BB in this situation and the UTG short stack pushed and its folded to you. Which of these hands would you call with? Any? Now that I think of it, Id probably fold them all with the possible exception of KJo.

[Travis]

[ QUOTE ]


Edit: Also, what range of hands would you put any potential callers on?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the key of the post. Its pretty easy to put those hands into pokerstove once you decide on the range.

By looking at the hands selected here for review I think I know where Scuba is headed with this. A3o is going to do worse against almost any range of calling hands that we come up with. However, lots of people like to push with Ax rather than JTs, 22 or KJs.

[sofere]

Your right...and I think one of my leaks is having too tight calling standards in situations like this.

I think in the BB i would not be comfortable calling with less than A7, KQ, or 88 even though I am getting really good odds. Especially when I still have a great deal fold equity.

At the $20s the general calling range is much much wider.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
Thought of this in the shower this morning (all my best thinking is done in the shower).

It's five handed. It's time for you to "make a move." Let's say the table looks like this.

Blinds (100/200)
UTG (HERO) 700
CO 2300
Button 2000
SB 1500
BB 1500

Next hand, blinds increase to 150/300. (just to make things real tight)

Please rank the following hands in the order you'd prefer to push with:

A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (A3o)
2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (22)
T /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif (TJs)
K /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif (KJo)

Edit: Also, what range of hands would you put any potential callers on?

[/ QUOTE ]

JTs, KJ, 22, A3

But really I'd probably push almost any two in this spot UTG. If I'm going to blind out you better know I'll go down in a fight.

I'd expect BB to possibly fold if he doesn't know about pot odds and the fact that he has a medium stack helps me pick on his BB. I'd honestly fully expect to have 1000 chips after any push here more often than getting called.

CO AT+, 66+
button: A9+, 55+
SB: aggressive SB's would need A6+, any paint combination, any pair, pretty much any decent hand
BB: because of pot odds, 85os+

I must say though that this post looks really similar to the one I posted yesterday /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
Your right...and I think one of my leaks is having too tight calling standards in situations like this.

I think in the BB i would not be comfortable calling with less than A7, KQ, or 88 even though I am getting really good odds. Especially when I still have a great deal fold equity.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well given the fact that it's a no-brainer push with JTs, any ace, etc. from UTG, it should be clear that at the very least, the big blind is correct to call with any pair getting 2:1 on his money.

And would you really fold hands like JJ and AKs from the cutoff? I didn't think anybody was that tight!

I'd say the calling range (and I'm not putting much thought into this) would/should be something like:

CO/Button: A9+, 77+
SB: A8+, KJ+, 55+
BB: Any ace, K5+, Q8+, J9+, any pair

[pokerlaw]

With four people behind you, the odds that one of them:

Has a pok pair: roughly 20%

Has any ace (if you have A3): roughly 35%-40%.
If you have no ace, then the odds are about 50% that someone else has one.

I feel that any pok pair will call. As to A2-A8, the bigger stacks are much more likely to call - with definite call by all players if they get A9 and up.

Would I call half of my stack in the SB with A6o? Probably, but it is not a definite in my book.

While I would push any of the four, I would rank:

A3/KJ/J10/22. My prob w 22 is that 80% of the time, it is a coinflip, and 20% of the time, it is dominated.

[A_PLUS]

Ok, here is my range of hands based on my 20+2 play:
CU: AA-22, AKs-A6s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo
B: AA-22, AKs-A6s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo, QJo
SB: AA-22, AKs-A8s, KQs-KTs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo
BB: AA-22, AKs-A4s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo, QJo-QTo.

I am running a sim now.

[Bigwig]

It's really only necessary to run the widest range, I think.

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
And would you really fold hands like JJ and AKs from the cutoff? I didn't think anybody was that tight!

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason, you see, is that no matter how hard I try, I play a very different game when I'm theorizing about what I would do as opposed to when I am actually in the game.

I hate that about me /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Dallara]

This is a great question because I thought I knew the answer and it turns out I was wrong. Also for the second time in two days I get to quote this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=592219& fpart=&PHPSESSID=)

look about halfway down the thread for Eastbay's post with the three columns of numbers. following column three (ranking hands vs. a proposed set of calling hands), the order is JTs, 22, KJo, A3o. Column 1 shows rankings against a random hand where the order is KJo, JTs, A3o, 22.

Assuming these numbers are correct for what they are, most people here seem to be arguing that the calling range in this case is wider than in column 3 (column 3 is aces except A6o-A20, all pairs, KQs, KJs, KTs, QJs). So, if we were to include more Kx and Qx hands, we can assume that the value of JTs would go down, while the value of KJo and to a lesser extent A3o would go up.

Put that together with a little hand waving and my order for this problem is KJo, A3o, JTs, 22.

[A_PLUS]

I am using TTH, that way you can adjust the players after the CU. For instance, you can have your self UG with any of the hands raising. The CU will call with the above hands, and reraise with a smaller range. Button will call my bet on a sliding sclae depending on what the CU does, etc, etc.

TTH is really a cool tool for NL, when the blinds get so high that you really only have a limited number of plays.
It allows you to adjust for the probability that 2 players have premium hands, etc.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a great question because I thought I knew the answer and it turns out I was wrong. Also for the second time in two days I get to quote this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=592219& fpart=&PHPSESSID=)

look about halfway down the thread for Eastbay's post with the three columns of numbers. following column three (ranking hands vs. a proposed set of calling hands), the order is JTs, 22, KJo, A3o. Column 1 shows rankings against a random hand where the order is KJo, JTs, A3o, 22.

Assuming these numbers are correct for what they are, most people here seem to be arguing that the calling range in this case is wider than in column 3 (column 3 is aces except A6o-A20, all pairs, KQs, KJs, KTs, QJs). So, if we were to include more Kx and Qx hands, we can assume that the value of JTs would go down, while the value of KJo and to a lesser extent A3o would go up.

Put that together with a little hand waving and my order for this problem is KJo, A3o, JTs, 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

good job...my problem with this exercise and your results is that the "proposed set of calling hands" is any pair and any ace only (i believe). This really skews the results...and is overly restrictive. By limiting calling hands to any ace any pair, this will toss A3 and 22 to the bottom, obviously...but are these two sets of hands really what people are calling with only? no way

[The Yugoslavian]

Anyone here think you'll also be called by weaker Kings by the BB (and even perhaps the SB)??

IMO:
BB: 22+, A2+, K4+, Q7+, J8+, and perhaps even a couple other hands....

The other positions will tighten up the further out from the BB they are but not so that their range looks like 66+, AJ+, KQ or whatever.

Yugoslav
Who thinks ppl are giving too much credit to the table of opponents in this scenario.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone here think you'll also be called by weaker Kings by the BB (and even perhaps the SB)??

IMO:
BB: 22+, A2+, K4+, Q7+, J8+, and perhaps even a couple other hands....

The other positions will tighten up the further out from the BB they are but not so that their range looks like 66+, AJ+, KQ or whatever.

Yugoslav
Who thinks ppl are giving too much credit to the table of opponents in this scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think thats too wide for BB...at least for me as BB...never thought of myself as tight either. I would call with JT maybe but J8 crosses that line in my mind. especially given that you might be able to steal a better blind on the next hand if you lay this one down and be in better shape than you were given the blind increase... (yeah, farfetched, i know)

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

i think thats too wide for BB...at least for me as BB...never thought of myself as tight either.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I have no read on the BB here. And none was supplied. I realize I'm going pretty loose here.

[ QUOTE ]

I would call with JT maybe but J8 crosses that line in my mind.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're not in the BB here. You may or may not be typical of the $33 player.

[ QUOTE ]

especially given that you might be able to steal a better blind on the next hand if you lay this one down and be in better shape than you were given the blind increase... (yeah, farfetched, i know)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not as farfetched as you may think. The most important read at the table for this play is the BB. Is there a chance he'll let you win the blinds in a walk the next hand? Is he the type who completes with almost any two? Is he tight?

Also, what has his and your previous 3 hands been like. Has he just been folding (have you just been folding). Has he been pushing all over the place? Has he been calling all over the place?

I think enough players realize you're desperate here to call off a ton of their chips with hands that I wouldn't be caught dead with calling here.

Anyway, I like a default range that's pretty loose here with no info on the BB....

Yugoslav

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i think thats too wide for BB...at least for me as BB...never thought of myself as tight either.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I have no read on the BB here. And none was supplied. I realize I'm going pretty loose here.

[ QUOTE ]

I would call with JT maybe but J8 crosses that line in my mind.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're not in the BB here. You may or may not be typical of the $33 player.

[ QUOTE ]

especially given that you might be able to steal a better blind on the next hand if you lay this one down and be in better shape than you were given the blind increase... (yeah, farfetched, i know)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not as farfetched as you may think. The most important read at the table for this play is the BB. Is there a chance he'll let you win the blinds in a walk the next hand? Is he the type who completes with almost any two? Is he tight?

Also, what has his and your previous 3 hands been like. Has he just been folding (have you just been folding). Has he been pushing all over the place? Has he been calling all over the place?

I think enough players realize you're desperate here to call off a ton of their chips with hands that I wouldn't be caught dead with calling here.

Anyway, I like a default range that's pretty loose here with no info on the BB....

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

good questions, and these are always important when threads like this come up...I usually go into these discussions thinking neutral...a bunch of "poohs" at the table which may or may not lead to any "real" results. (not that I am typical or anything for that matter, just try and put myself in everyone's shoes)

but, still think that's too loose a range for BB...esp 33's.

[Dallara]

The calling range for column 3 is a little different than any ace any pair, it's aces except A6o-A20, all pairs, KQs, KJs, KTs, QJs. I agree this is still too tight, thus my comment about the hand waving.

I'll be interested to see how A-Plus's sim comes out.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
The calling range for column 3 is a little different than any ace any pair, it's aces except A6o-A20, all pairs, KQs, KJs, KTs, QJs. I agree this is still too tight, thus my comment about the hand waving.

I'll be interested to see how A-Plus's sim comes out.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh ok, sorry. I didnt ivestigate that thread enough (though I had at the time...its a goody).

Agreed...wanna see the sim.

[TheUsher]

What makes you give UTG raiser credit for a monster if you're the BB? If this is any reasonable player he'd have these thoughts going on in his head:

I only have 700 chips left and it looks like I'm next to go. I have xx now and if I push now I might get to pick up the blinds and increase my stack to 1000 chips. If I fold, after posting my BB the next hand I'll only have 400 chips left. I'll most likely get some crap next hand so if the button or SB picks on my BB, I'll have to fold. If I do decide to call their raise with my random hand, I'm almost certain I'm at least a 2-1 dog to whatever they're raising me with.

Would you rather be the aggressor in this situation with maybe the same 2-1 dog as the UTG raiser with a chance to pick up chips or the poor guy who'll probably get bubbled taking no chances.

I may be wrong in this whole argument but this is what always goes on in my head if this happens.

Edit: I apply these thoughts to the 50's I play.

[Scuba Chuck]

This is my favorite response so far... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
By looking at the hands selected here for review I think I know where Scuba is headed with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, let's make this a simple math problem. For argument's sake (edit: to reduce arguments), let's assume there will be only one caller. Therefore, we will use the one who has the widest range of potential calling hands. I think we can all agree that BB will be that caller.

For me, I think the range is 55+, A6s+, A7o+, K8s+, K9o+, Q9s+, QTo+, JT+. There will be differences in opinion here on some hands that should be included or excluded. I think that this is a good middle of the road sample.

Any other thing I should be including?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Next thing we have to determine is what is the probability of being called in this hand? Any ideas?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeez, Chuck. You know how many variables that has with all the players left to act? As a guess, I'd say you'll get called about 65% of the time. Now, guess my favorite flavor of ice cream.

[Scuba Chuck]

Bigwig,
Decided not to deal with that, please disregard...

[Scuba Chuck]

This is what I've tabulated so far (assuming I can read my chicken scratches):

Hand Rank A3s ....22 ....KJo ....TJs
1st .........3.......1......3.......4

2nd .........2.......3......5.......1

3rd .........4 ......0 .....3 ......4

4th .........6 ......3 .....0 ......2


Anyone else want to weigh in yet?

[curtains]

btw I don't want to rank these hands, as they are all very obvious allins.

[curtains]

I don't know which I'd rather have. This is something that I should know exactly, to better determine what to do if I had more chips.

ie - With a certain number of chips I may fold some of these hands but allin with the others. A better way of asking this question is to ask how many chips you would need to allin with these hands UTG.

[curtains]

btw I would push with all these hands, even if I had quite a few more chips to begin the hand. Once I have about 1300, some of these hands may turn into folds.

[blingice]

J 10, KJ, A 3, 2 2

[Notfunny1]

The hands you most like to push with here should change drastically between buy-in levels I would think. That being said for the 10+1's where I play my order is:
KJo -- not dominated by the Ax that is definitely calling me and ahead of many kings that are calling (Have had several calls with K9 and worse).

JTs -- also not dominated to often, plus high pair, flush and better straight possiblities. These top two were close for me.

These other two weren't.
22 -- wow i don't like it but I played badly enough to only have 700 at level 5 (almost 6) so here goes nothing.

A3s -- I am almost willing to dump this and take my chances in the bb next hand. I will be dominated by almost everyone who calls me at this point, except for the flush probability(rarity), 3 outs against every pair or 3 outs against A7 etc.

_____________________
What I will be called by:

Every Ace, seriously every single one.
Every Pair, see above.
Most Kings (lets say down to K7)
Qjs-Q9s, QJo, J10s

Its more than likely that the SB will overpush his AJo and the BB will call with 66.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know which I'd rather have. This is something that I should know exactly, to better determine what to do if I had more chips.

ie - With a certain number of chips I may fold some of these hands but allin with the others. A better way of asking this question is to ask how many chips you would need to allin with these hands UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

The super pros like you shouldn't be posting here, lol. This is part B of my question, eventually.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
The hands you most like to push with here should change drastically between buy-in levels I would think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I should have quantified this. Up to the $33 buyin. That being said, I don't think the range will be that different. The lower buyins might have lower Ax's, and the higher buyins might have some craftier players who might call with hand like 9Ts. But, our range will be 'good enough' for the $11-33 buyins. (I have no sub $10+1 experience, so I have no idea.)

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know which I'd rather have. This is something that I should know exactly, to better determine what to do if I had more chips.

ie - With a certain number of chips I may fold some of these hands but allin with the others. A better way of asking this question is to ask how many chips you would need to allin with these hands UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

The super pros like you shouldn't be posting here, lol. This is part B of my question, eventually.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a super pro? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I'd want 1350 to fold, BTW. On Party.

[curtains]

These hands shuold all be pushed at any buyin without question.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
These hands shuold all be pushed at any buyin without question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains, my second post on this thread was the following, in case you missed it.

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm pushing all 4 of these in this scenario, BTW.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I agree here. I just didn't want any discussion/blasts on "This is not a pushing hand, IMO."


[/ QUOTE ]

[curtains]

I was responding to the person who cared what the buyin is. I think it's irrelevant in this spot.

[Scuba Chuck]

These are just simple pokerstove calculations:

KJo: 45.93%
A3o: 44.89%
22: 44.05%
JTs: 39.34%

OK, so anyone want to take a crack at why JTs was so low? Specifically, why did we include so many J and T hands? And then, let's further discuss, what scenarios you think JTs might make more sense to push with.

[curtains]

Please let me know, what does Pokerstove do?

[Allinlife]

[ QUOTE ]

Please let me know, what does Pokerstove do?

[/ QUOTE ]
it calculates % win/lose vs range of hands

[Travis]

Scuba, what range did you use here? I didn't get A3o above 22 for any of my ranges.

[curtains]

Oh cool, that should be useful. I wanted to solve a bunch of common preflop situations, this should help.

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
Please let me know, what does Pokerstove do?

[/ QUOTE ]

It runs a simulation against a range of hands (i.e. you can enter 77+, AT+). It's a step up from something like twodimes, in which you have to enter the exact hand (i.e. As8s vs. KcJh).

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
These are just simple pokerstove calculations:

KJo: 45.93%
A3o: 44.89%
22: 44.05%
JTs: 39.34%

OK, so anyone want to take a crack at why JTs was so low? Specifically, why did we include so many J and T hands? And then, let's further discuss, what scenarios you think JTs might make more sense to push with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to point out that the pokerstove calculations correspond exactly with what I said in my first post, where I said that KJo, A3o, and 22 were very close and JTs was a few equity points below.

How did I know this? Cause I've already done all of these hypotheticals.

:: pats self on back ::

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
These are just simple pokerstove calculations:

KJo: 45.93%
A3o: 44.89%
22: 44.05%
JTs: 39.34%

OK, so anyone want to take a crack at why JTs was so low? Specifically, why did we include so many J and T hands? And then, let's further discuss, what scenarios you think JTs might make more sense to push with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, to get this going again. Let's change the stacks a little bit. Let's say the starting stacks are the following:

Blinds (100/200)
UTG (HERO) 1000
CO 2000
Button 2000
SB 1500
BB 1500

Next hand, blinds increase to 150/300.

What do you believe the calling standards of a push from here is now? Specifically focus on the BB's standards. Do you think they have changed? And if so, by how much?

And if you think they change, how does TJs hold up to this calling range now - as compared to KJo, A3s, 22?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are just simple pokerstove calculations:

KJo: 45.93%
A3o: 44.89%
22: 44.05%
JTs: 39.34%

OK, so anyone want to take a crack at why JTs was so low? Specifically, why did we include so many J and T hands? And then, let's further discuss, what scenarios you think JTs might make more sense to push with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, to get this going again. Let's change the stacks a little bit. Let's say the starting stacks are the following:

Blinds (100/200)
UTG (HERO) 1000
CO 2000
Button 2000
SB 1500
BB 1500

Next hand, blinds increase to 150/300.

What do you believe the calling standards of a push from here is now? Specifically focus on the BB's standards. Do you think they have changed? And if so, by how much?

And if you think they change, how does TJs hold up to this calling range now - as compared to KJo, A3s, 22?

[/ QUOTE ]

BB's range has to go way up...t300 shift does a lot here. BB has 1300 after posting 800 more to call, if he loses 500 minus 150 when he posts sb on next hand and he is basically out (no FE left)...so odds or no odds, this is BB's last "non-geronimo" hand if he calls and loses. Dont recall the exact range, but I'd start taking QJ KT and such hands out...he may call with AT+, 88+, KQ+....give or take?

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
These are just simple pokerstove calculations:

KJo: 45.93%
A3o: 44.89%
22: 44.05%
JTs: 39.34%

OK, so anyone want to take a crack at why JTs was so low? Specifically, why did we include so many J and T hands? And then, let's further discuss, what scenarios you think JTs might make more sense to push with.

[/ QUOTE ]

What range do you use? My rank is KJ 22 JT A3. Maybe you use a pretty loose calling range.