KJs hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Chris Daddy Cool

03-09-2005, 01:27 PM

Preflop raiser is a 33/17 player.

Who likes to raise the turn? And other stuff

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $15.
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets
Final Pot: 15.50 BB

ErrantNight

03-09-2005, 01:31 PM

i'm inclined to say raise the turn...

but i'm thinking the argument against is: it would suck to get 3-bet, and a check/3-bet flop play is pretty damn strong play here...

so i'm wondering how colored my judgement is after that river check

if he had led, would you have considered raising the river?

PokerBob

03-09-2005, 01:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop raiser is a 33/17 player.

Who likes to raise the turn? And other stuff

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $15.
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets
Final Pot: 15.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

What is SB check/3-betting here on the flop? I would saw it's a draw pumper, but there aren't any obvious draws out there. Is he just making a move in hopes that leading the turn will fold out the field?

I think if you raise the turn, you have an insta-muck to a 3-bet. I want to show this down, so I call and call/bet the river. What if he c'rs the river? Do you give him credit for the set?

by the way in 33/17, what is the 17? I assume the 33 is VPIP.

PBob

sthief09

03-09-2005, 01:40 PM

I seem to go in cycles. I feel like not long ago I was disagreeing with everyone about preflop stuff. it's happening agian. I don't like that cold call

postflop is far more interesting, but I think I might like it. I just don't know how often you take this down without a shwodown though.

sthief09

03-09-2005, 01:42 PM

based on the way he played the hand, I'd say SB has AT or KT

bakku

03-09-2005, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to go in cycles. I feel like not long ago I was disagreeing with everyone about preflop stuff. it's happening agian. I don't like that cold call

[/ QUOTE ]

MarkD

03-09-2005, 01:46 PM

This time I agree with you. I don't like the pre-flop cold call and it will take a lot of convincing for me to like it.

Post-flop is more interesting. Initially I did not like the flop raise, after replaying the action a couple of times in my head I do like hte flop raise a lot and it's somethign I probably need to do more. I think the turn and river are standard here and that after SB check / 3-bets a drawless flop I think raising the turn is reckless. SB could forecast a bet from behind him and planned his check raise on the flop for value and after CDC raised SB stuck with his C/R plan so he has a decent hand.

After then check the river it's an easy value bet though. Actually, now that I think about it I believe the only interesting street is the flop as I believe the turn and river essentially play themselves.

sthief09

03-09-2005, 01:49 PM

I'm really glad you're posting here again, even it it's temporary.

Grease

03-09-2005, 01:50 PM

PF-Not my favorite, but it's palatable and I can understand why you did it, especially if the cold-caller was loose as well.

Flop-I like the raise a lot. The PF raised checked, and MP2 might try to steal the initiative. The check/three bet sucks, but considering that, I think that raising the turn would be a bad idea, and if you do, you should definitely fold to a 3-bet. However, as sthief pointed out, the SB could easily have A10, and he'll probably call you all the way with it. So I guess I like raising the turn if you fold to a 3-bet (which I'm sure you would).

River plays itself.

MarkD

03-09-2005, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really glad you're posting here again, even it it's temporary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I almost feel as if I shouldn't be giving advice though as my results are not very good (sample size is relatively small as I don't play enough though). In fact one of the reasons I took my recent break from 2+2 is that I feel as if I know this game a little bit, but my results were horrible so everytime I gave advice and people agreed and then I'd go lose some more it kind of hurt. I believe I'm too emotional about my game at times (I have too much self-doubt I think).

In case anyone wonders about this losing streak I mentioned above. I think I'm at about 15k+ hands where I was down over 220BB's. I have been winning a little lately but am still down a lot. 15k hands is a lot when you average less than 10k per month and the duration of hte losing streak in terms of physical time was/is wearing on me.

Sorry about posting this drivel and I hope it doesn't derail the thread but once I started writing it felt good to vent a little frustration. It also feels good to be posting advice again and thinking about the game a lot.

sfer

03-09-2005, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really glad you're posting here again...

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerBob

03-09-2005, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like that cold call

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't make it cuz my post-flop sucks, but with the poster in there, is this not going to be a large, multiway pot where CDC's holding (combined with his post skills) has straight/flush value? I know he may be dominated, but he seems to have lots of outs away from that. Or am I dead wrong? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

sthief09

03-09-2005, 02:15 PM

you sound exactly like me. it's a tough game when you're losing. you feel like it must be something you're doing wrong. unfortunately, trying to improve only has effects on the longrun. It would be great if I could read 2+2 for a few hours, then log on Party Poker and win lots of money. instead, it seems to be the opposite. I'm in a 200 bb downer at 15/30 too, plus another 100 at live 10/20. I think over my entire poker career I've been break even or losing, aside from December and January.

MarkD

03-09-2005, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't make it cuz my post-flop sucks, but with the poster in there, is this not going to be a large, multiway pot where CDC's holding (combined with his post skills) has straight/flush value? I know he may be dominated, but he seems to have lots of outs away from that. Or am I dead wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you are dead wrong here but CDC is putting himself in bad relative position and it isn't certain that the pot will be a large multi-way one and it isn't certain that it wont' get 3-bet and capped behind him. If it is a large multi-way pot then CDC's post-flop position is generally going to be bad IMO.

This is one of the reason I fold pre-flop here.

BottlesOf

03-09-2005, 02:22 PM

I play it the same way except I probably dump it preflop. I don't raise the turn after all that action on the flop and the presence of both players.

mikeyKay

03-09-2005, 02:25 PM

could someone explain to me the idea behind the flop raise...it seems like everyone likes it. w/ 2 overs(that might be dominated), a backdoor flush/straight draw, and just about zero chance of winning the pot right there, what does it do for you? is it just for a free card on the turn, make your opponents call 2 cold (but they are still getting 1:7 on the call), or what? sorry if this is an easy question that has been answered 100 times.

-mike

bobbyi

03-09-2005, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
by the way in 33/17, what is the 17? I assume the 33 is VPIP.

[/ QUOTE ]
17 is his preflop raise %. Yes, 33 is vpip.

PokerBob

03-09-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
by the way in 33/17, what is the 17? I assume the 33 is VPIP.

[/ QUOTE ]
17 is his preflop raise %. Yes, 33 is vpip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes. That's what I thought, but then I assumed i was wrong, as 17 seems absurdly high. Thanks.

me454555

03-09-2005, 03:42 PM

One thing of note. SB was on the right of the pfr. It's likely that he flopped a strong hand and had intended to c/r the entire field.

I put him on 66, 33, or TT, or some funky 2 pair.

MaxPower

03-09-2005, 03:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
by the way in 33/17, what is the 17? I assume the 33 is VPIP.

[/ QUOTE ]
17 is his preflop raise %. Yes, 33 is vpip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes. That's what I thought, but then I assumed i was wrong, as 17 seems absurdly high. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its fairly common in that game. The typical player is a 10. There are many that are 17-25.

DeathDonkey

03-09-2005, 05:41 PM

I would raise the turn, but I would just call if the turn was a King. Hmm.

-DeathDonkey

Super Pro

03-09-2005, 07:35 PM

i don't want to sound like an ass here. i know i'm new. but i just need to tell the world what an incredibly bad player you are. the preflop call is horrible. i'm sure you only posted this hand because you won. thats good old fashioned results orientated thinking. congratulations, you got lucky and won a pot you shouldn't have. now stop posting bad advice to other players who for some god forsaken reason look up to you.

sthief09

03-09-2005, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i don't want to sound like an ass here.

[/ QUOTE ]

then why'd you do it?

Entity

03-09-2005, 07:46 PM

Your first couple posts weren't the worst in the world, I suppose. I mean, I've seen worse advice or commentary. But seriously, if you think CDC is posting this because he won the hand, rather than the fact that there's room for debate on every street, you're a tard.

I'm really glad for the ignore function on these forums.

[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***

[/ QUOTE ]

Rob

Super Pro

03-09-2005, 07:54 PM

because that is how strongly i feel about how bad cdc plays. i've seriously gone back and looked over a lot of his hands. most of them are borderline ridiuclous, making incredibly marginal decisions in big pots, like those two AK folds and then preaching it as if there were no other way to play it. most players if they made that kind of play would suffer horrible results and cdc is only encouraging them to do so.

Super Pro

03-09-2005, 07:54 PM

it's fine. i can ignore you too.

Chris Daddy Cool

03-09-2005, 07:56 PM

Hi fucker,

I've decided not to argue with you. That is all. Have a nice day.

Hugs,
Chris

Entity

03-09-2005, 07:59 PM

For the record, I don't really like the preflop play here much (I don't think it's terrible, but I'm not coldcalling with KJs here). I think the flop play is pretty good given the likelihood of folding better hands and the size of the pot. Turn and river pretty much play themselves.

How do you deal with a river c/r, Chris?

Rob

sthief09

03-09-2005, 08:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
because that is how strongly i feel about how bad cdc plays. i've seriously gone back and looked over a lot of his hands. most of them are borderline ridiuclous, making incredibly marginal decisions in big pots, like those two AK folds and then preaching it as if there were no other way to play it. most players if they made that kind of play would suffer horrible results and cdc is only encouraging them to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

the AK trips hand isn't close

Chris Daddy Cool

03-09-2005, 08:10 PM

the preflop call is marginal i must admit, but with a CO poster and a guy who opens 17% of his hands, i thought it would be worth a play here. i certainly don't think it's "absolutely horrendous and the proof that i'm such a terrible player".

anyhoo, i lean back and forth between whether or not to pay off checkraises, but in this case i would, i would think mainly because its just too damn odd to show that much aggresssion and then check the river when it could easily get checked behind. the possibility that he's a major donk or super pro would cross my mind and i'd be forced to call.

Nate tha' Great

03-09-2005, 08:13 PM

I like how you played the hand all the way through.

jason_t

03-09-2005, 08:14 PM

Super Pro

03-09-2005, 08:24 PM

Boo.

CallMeIshmael

03-09-2005, 08:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also the PFR has loose standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but the poster probably has villian raise more often than usual as well.

Chris Daddy Cool

03-09-2005, 09:09 PM

results

bad dude had KT and MHIG

gaming_mouse

03-09-2005, 09:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi fucker,

[/ QUOTE ]

You are officially my favorite poster of the day.

gaming_mouse

03-09-2005, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think over my entire poker career I've been break even or losing, aside from December and January.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif Josh, what do you mean by this? I'd been under the impression that you do very well. I might even say you've been an inspiration of sorts. Please explain....

gm

LoaferGee12

03-09-2005, 10:04 PM

Can I hear an explanation for this flop raise? I'm just not seeing it.

bakku

03-09-2005, 10:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can I hear an explanation for this flop raise? I'm just not seeing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 overcards, backdoor flush draw, crappy backdoor straight draw, potential to buy the button for a free card, 13 sb in the pot.

LoaferGee12

03-09-2005, 10:23 PM

Makes sense.

Ice

03-09-2005, 10:51 PM

Chrisdaddy

This hand was played PERFECTLY. I hope some of the posters will read this and TRY and incorporate this into their post-flop play.Why was the hand played so well;

1)Pot raised pre-flop so it is a pretty big pot
2)2 overcards with a backdoor draw
3)Board raggedy
4)6 players in the pot
5)bet came from right and can confront the other players with calling two cold which will impove your chances of winning this nice size pot.

Well Done. Ice

cnfuzzd

03-10-2005, 01:04 AM

cnfuzzd

03-10-2005, 01:06 AM

CDC, i like it all the way.

The preflop CC is fine in my opinion.

peace

john nickle

CallMeIshmael

03-10-2005, 01:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously. I would recommend killing yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost wet myself when I read this.

(Necessary note to Super Pro: that was sarcasm.)

PokerBob

03-10-2005, 01:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
results

bad dude had KT and MHIG

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you fold if SB leads the river?

chief444

03-10-2005, 01:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
CDC, i like it all the way.

The preflop CC is fine in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I'd be 3-betting with AJs here against a 17% pfr opponent with the cold call in between and poster behind so I can't argue with cold-calling KJs.

cnfuzzd

03-10-2005, 01:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
results

bad dude had KT and MHIG

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you fold if SB leads the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

no.

peace

john nickle

jason_t

03-10-2005, 01:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously. I would recommend killing yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost wet myself when I read this.

(Necessary note to Super Pro: that was sarcasm.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The part about wetting yourself is the sarcastic part, right?

jason_t

03-10-2005, 01:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you fold if SB leads the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

No way.

crunchy1

03-10-2005, 10:02 AM

Congrats.....

Luv the "hi fucker" reply to Super Pro.... /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

The hand.....

Why not 3-bet PF to isolate if you think he's got weak raising standards? Is it because of the MP2 cold-call? If it's folded to you do you 3-bet? If it's 3-bet/capped behind you are you calling 1 or 2 more? Or were you cold-calling with the expectation that the poster and at least one blind would come along for the ride to pay you off if you hit a monster?

Chris Daddy Cool

03-10-2005, 10:17 AM

i suppose a case could be made for 3-betting preflop, but while 17 pfr is high, its not so ridiculously high where i should be 3-betting here with the coldcaller inbetween us imo.

Super Pro

03-10-2005, 10:29 AM

hi fucker,

i'll conceed the fact that coldcalling here isn't as terrible as i previously described, but still pretty bad in my opinion. but what i will not conceed to is that fact that you are rude and incompetent and please stop posting hands where you make yourself out to look better than you actually are. it makes me want to puke.

hugs,
Super Pro

jason_t

03-10-2005, 10:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]

*** You are ignoring this user ***

[/ QUOTE ]

chesspain

03-10-2005, 10:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
One thing of note. SB was on the right of the pfr.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah...SB is always on the right of everybody. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Daddy Cool

03-10-2005, 10:41 AM

i /images/graemlins/heart.gif your mom.

jskills

03-10-2005, 10:42 AM

So guys - I understand the debate about preflop, it's not a huge deal either way when you get down to it, but can I ask a dumb question here? I don't understand the flop raise. Why do we do it here? You've got 2 overs and 2nd-nut bd flush draw. Are we trying to get people to fold? Do we have pot odds to do this or is it more about reads and playing players?

I have a lot to learn ...

Chris Daddy Cool

03-10-2005, 10:44 AM

i am doing my best to get people to fold. note who bet this flop. it wasn't the preflop raiser. he checked. so its likely the preflop raiser has something like AK or KQ or AJ, all hands i would LOVE to see him fold obviously.

pshabi

03-10-2005, 10:44 AM

Is your Party ID: PShabi?

Oh wait, that's me.

Your story sounds exactly like mine. Play about the same amount monthly, know exactly how/when to make the right plays, can't win to save myself. February/early March have been brutal but I can't seem to take a break.

Super Pro

03-10-2005, 10:54 AM

not funny.

chief444

03-10-2005, 10:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what i will not conceed to is that fact that you are rude and incompetent and please stop posting hands where you make yourself out to look better than you actually are.

[/ QUOTE ]
Neither factual nor funny.

QTip

03-10-2005, 10:58 AM

I actually thought I would see the thief say that instead of you. I considered a PF 3bet when I saw the 17% PFR...I mean, this guy could have a huge range of hands here. Wouldn't a 3 bet work to isolate him here?

PokerBob

03-10-2005, 11:00 AM

dipshit

hypermegachi

03-10-2005, 11:11 AM

of course people are going to post marginal hands in marginal situations in big pots. what else would you post? the time you won by betting aces?

bakku

03-10-2005, 11:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
of course people are going to post marginal hands in marginal situations in big pots. what else would you post? the time you won by betting aces?

[/ QUOTE ]

BURN!!!

jskills

03-10-2005, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i am doing my best to get people to fold. note who bet this flop. it wasn't the preflop raiser. he checked. so its likely the preflop raiser has something like AK or KQ or AJ, all hands i would LOVE to see him fold obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but what about the guy who bet the flop? He's likely got some piece of it (ATs, KTs, QTs, or higher PP) if he called a preflop raise no? Doesn't that put you in a bad spot? Isn't your only true out one of the jacks, since the K out could be tainted?