Put Him All-In or Call?

Hi all,

Playing 1-2 PL Omaha last night and interesting hand came up. I have A-10s and J-8c (AJ108). I have $1000 in front of me and have 3rd most chips in play on full table.
Player has $5 straddle on and 1 caller to me. I toss in a nickel as do 5 other players. BB( most chips approx 2200 raises $10 more. BTW, this raise means nothing as he raises pre-flop 95% of the time for action. We take a 7 handed flop of J98 with 1 spade. BB bets $20 and it's folded to me. I decide to call with my open ended str8 draw and two-pair and backdoor nut flush draw. With so many players behind me I thought a raise was unjustafiable and I can't imagine folding for such a small bet($20 into $115pot). 3 others call and the turn is the Qs. I have the 2nd nut str8, a K gives me the nut str8 with A-10, I still have two pair and now the nut flush draw. BB checks and I bet $100. Everyone folds to BB who raises me to $340. Even though this guy is a goose he gives me a lot of respect and I know he has the K-10. I don't think he has any back-up though other than maybe a Jack which takes away an out from me. I count 2 jacks, 2 eights, 3 Kings and 9 spades. There is $555 in the pot and it costs me $240. I thought about it for a while and decided to just call. The river was a 9 and he bet the pot. I'm telling you he's a goose and he would bet the pot with a str8 and the board paired. Obviously I through my hand away ut I'm wondering how many would have just shoved it in on the turn. Thanks,
Russ

[Jimbo]

My opinion of pot limit is that you want to get all your money in the pot when you have the best hand not necessarily the best draw. Your call was just fine, although a fold to the reraise would not have been an unacceptable decision IMO.


Jimbo

[J_V]

What kind of logic is that? The best hand is often a draw in pot limit Omaha.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Eh?

You say you're sure he has the nut straight on the turn, and you're drawing to less than half the deck. So why would you want to raise him all-in? You're a dog, but with enough outs to call his action. I don't see why you would raise with the known worst hand when you don't expect him to fold. If you had 16 outs twice instead of once, then you'd be the favorite here maybe, and can gamble for all the chips as a slight favorite.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Jimbo]

J V,

If that is your opinion of how to play P/L or N/L poker I invite you to our game my friend. I did not say never go all in on a draw but the hand described in the original post is not the time. In addition why do you think poor players go broke faster than good players? Two reasons, they call when they should fold and fold when they should raise.

Jimbo

[J_V]

I do play in your game, at PartyPoker.

I was just pointing out that your philosophy about always getting your money in with a made hand only cannot be backed up mathematically. As you probably well know, there are draws that are a favorite top set. I define the best hand as the hand that wins the most often at the end. Because of this, I don't understand your philosophy.

[Jimbo]

Fair enough J_V, you may be correct that my philosopy cannot be backed up mathmatically when the pot is contested multiway but neither does it disregard it entirely. You said "I define the best hand as the hand that wins the most often at the end." I agree that is one of the primary rules of poker but when you must risk all your chips to reach this mathmatical conclusion many people are hesitant to committ completely. In addition going all-in on a draw at the wrong times is a good way to go busted. This psychological penalty brings out the differences between better and lesser players. You said that there are draws that favor a top set, assuming we are discussing holdem I find that assumption to be false in heads up play (which most pots should become after the flop). Now if you are speaking of micro P/L OR N/L that is a completely different game. The penalty of losing a single hand is so small it plays more like limit poker than N/L or P/L.

The best example I can offer is a reasonably common real life situation skewed in your favor (the draw). The flop comes Kd 9d 2h, I hold black KK and you have QJd. This gives you 15 outs to the nuts. Now we had each put in $100 preflop for a pot total of $200 and each of us have $2000 more in front of us. I am first to act and overbet the pot in the amount of $500. Should you call? If you call and a blank comes on the turn and I then bet $1500 more should you then call? If not why would you have made the first call and not the 2nd?

If you can give me a holdem example where you have a better draw than this please outline it here. Besides I would like to see the draw that is favored over top set. Of course you can add a third player and that changes my collective chances of winning the hand and also may change mine and yours betting patterns.

Jimbo

[J_V]

Hey Jimbo,

Are you talking about NL/PL HOLDEM? If so, your philosophy is fine....because draws can only get so big in holdem. In Omaha the draws get so big you can't play without them, that was my point.

It looked like your argument was for holdem only, if so your philosophy is fine /forums/images/icons/smile.gif imo.

[Jimbo]

Yes J_V,

We do agree in Omaha it is a drawing man's game quite often. The biggest cajones often are required to win. Good discussing this with you.

Best Regards,

Jimbo

For 2 reasons... 1. You can never be sure unless he flips over his cards but I was 90% sure.2. If we get it all in this player would definitely deal it twice and I have a very good chance of making my hand at least once to split the pot and maybe win it both times.

Russ you said For 2 reasons... 1. You can never be sure unless he flips over his cards but I was 90% sure.2. If we get it all in this player would definitely deal it twice and I have a very good chance of making my hand at least once to split the pot and maybe win it both times.

Why would you want to lose 90% of the time but win twice 10% of the time? Seems to me you answered your own question here as to why the fold was a correct decision.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Well of course you can't be sure, but 90% is more than enough to NOT want to raise him all-in, I would think.

As for dealing it twice, you're engaging in fuzzy thinking there. Dealing it twice does nothing to change your expectation, it only reduces your variance. So, if folding is the right play, and raising is the wrong play, it's the wrong play whether you deal it once, twice, or 100 times.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)