Q8s in cutoff... 2 call-raises on flop. [Archive]

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milesdyson

03-09-2005, 06:16 AM

No specific reads, but FWIW table is about 31% VPIP and not many pots are getting raised preflop.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

What the shit just happened? Both UTG+2 and MP2 bust out with call-raises, but I'm getting 9.75:1 (I'm assuming UTG+1 is calling two more) on my call with 4 outs - if I'm behind (I feel behind).

Turn: (10.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

My feelings: a) I'd rather not get check raised here, and b) Thanks for the free card.

River: (10.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, MP2 calls, Hero ... ?

Easy overcall? Do you do anything different on other streets?

caggin

03-09-2005, 08:54 AM

I'd play it the same. I'd think you're behind too, but the turn check around is odd. I think someone's got a baby flush, straight, and/or a set, maybe someone's raising the nut flush draw? Easy overcall on the river.

easypete

03-09-2005, 09:20 AM

Q8s... it's a marginal hand pf w/ 3 limpers, I would lean towards folding here. one or two more limpers, I would call, but just 3... I don't think it's good enough for me.

post flop fine, without action on the turn, I might actually raise the river here, althought it's close. UTG+2 called/3-bet the flop and it was capped afterwards... If UTG+2 had a flush, think he may have gone for a c/r on turn to trap many in between, so it's quite possible you're behind. UTG+2 could have also played this way with just the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

I think you need a read, but I would either call or raise here.

k000k

03-09-2005, 10:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Q8s... it's a marginal hand pf w/ 3 limpers, I would lean towards folding here. one or two more limpers, I would call, but just 3... I don't think it's good enough for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, Qxs is a really loose call PF. On the flop, MP2 had the equity to get all the $$ he could in there with a A/K hi flush draw. Betting the turn is -EV, of course he'd CALL one if he had to. He CR'ed the flop, most players don't usually try that 2 streets in a row, certainly not with a flush draw.. After the first CR, the cat is out of the bag, he has declared big strength.

I'm convinced I'm up against a flush draw on the turn, I'd bet the turn. He was obviously (correctly) building as big a pot as possible on the flop, and had to back off on the big streets. I bet the turn, if I get raised, THEN someone gets credit for set/str8, and I call it getting odds to my 4-out boat.

Had you bet the turn, you may not be getting bet into on the river. In this hand, with the turn checking thru, I really beleive I'm the best hand now, and I'd raise the river. Nobody's flush came in, I'm not too worried about straights/sets due to the turn action, I think MP2 may have something like QJ KJ AT A8 with a high card being a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, hoping his single pair stands up in the face of turn weakness.

To be clear, I'd bet the turn OR raise the river, not both. I'd be more concerned if he check-called the turn, then bet into me on the river..

Buckmulligan

03-09-2005, 10:38 AM

What about calling on the flop with the intention of raising the turn if a blank drops?

Reef

03-09-2005, 10:54 AM

I fold preflop

k000k

03-09-2005, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What about calling on the flop with the intention of raising the turn if a blank drops?

[/ QUOTE ]

And let the flush draws get cheap cards? NO WAY! Flush draws will call, make em pay NOW. I am not giving credit for a flopped flush on the flop, and when he checks to me on the turn, I'm even more sure he's drawing.

Your 2pair and the highest flush draw are probably the only 2 hands with more than your fair share of equity. Everyone else is drawing dead or very slim. The way I see it, the 2 of you are battling for the pot, everyone else tagging along is just paying one of you. If thats the case, which I beleive with a high degree of certainty, you're in the lead, get the $$ in there. If a 4th diamond shows up, call and draw your boat if you can or fold.

Nothing about this hand make me think there's a set or a str8, just broken flush draws and probably a couple of pairs.