is pushing here the right move? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Merlyn22

03-09-2005, 04:33 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney ($20+2), Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Villain (t4158)
Hero (t1132)
MP (t950)
Button (t1120)
SB (t640)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero raises to t1132 (All-In), 3 folds, Villain calls t932.

Flop: (t2364) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2364) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2364) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2364

Results in white below: 
villain has Ah Kc (two pair, aces and nines).
Hero has Kd Qh (one pair, nines).
Outcome: villain wins t2364. 
I had stolen blinds a couple of times already from players other than the villain (big stack) - haven't been called yet after raising pre-flop. The other 3 players seemed pretty weak. The BB seemed like a somewhat solid player maybe a little loose. Is this a good push?

SuitedSixes

03-09-2005, 04:37 AM

http://usera.imagecave.com/BSwing23/GIFTED.jpg

Push.

ZebraAss

03-09-2005, 04:40 AM

It is...just okay. I dont know about everyone else. But I do not like KQ that much...heck i hate that hand...especially UTG.

You arent that bad off. But if you feel that you are in trouble I guess it was a good move. Just dont drown in your own greed(usually happens when big stacked but could happen when you panic). You did not have to push here. blinds are plenty low.

(I could be very wrong)

My official vote: FOLD.

Slim Pickens

03-09-2005, 05:38 AM

I don't like the push. You'll have plenty of opportunities to steal blinds with the big stack's cards already in the muck, so why take the one where your fold equity is artificially deflated by the chip differential between you and the BB? This goes double if you think he's a loose caller. That means you can add garbage aces and low PP's to the list of hands he might have on a call, and you're not a favorite against any of them. Keep bullying the other small stacks.

Slim

SuitedSixes

03-09-2005, 05:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the push. You'll have plenty of opportunities to steal blinds with the big stack's cards already in the muck, so why take the one where your fold equity is artificially deflated by the chip differential between you and the BB? This goes double if you think he's a loose caller. That means you can add garbage aces and low PP's to the list of hands he might have on a call, and you're not a favorite against any of them. Keep bullying the other small stacks.

Slim

[/ QUOTE ]

First, throw out the results, because he got unlucky running into AK. But when you're Big Stack do you really call with garbage when someone raises into you? I don't, I think, "Damn that guy must have a pretty big hand to be raising into the chip leader like that." So I am throwing away crappy Aces and low pocket pairs, because I worked hard to get this big stack and I'm not going to risk it by calling someone who is all-in against me.

KJ o

03-09-2005, 06:19 AM

Now, I laugh as much as the next guy at that picture, but isn't the lesson that one shouldn't push?

Are there any Larson comics with folding chairs? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

SuitedSixes

03-09-2005, 06:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are there any Larson comics with folding chairs?

[/ QUOTE ]
I will have to get back to you on that.

lutefisk

03-09-2005, 09:06 AM

I'd throw my vote to fold as well. All 3 have a chance to call, and I'd say that you're in trouble against any hand that would call. Given that villain is loose, he may call with a worse king, but will also probably call with many aces, if not many, and you don't want to see an ace.

Maybe this is just events getting into my head and causing me to think wrong, but I really don't like making a stand with a king high hand, especially against someone who can call. I'd wait to push against one of the smaller stacks.

Seadood228

03-09-2005, 09:12 AM

I'd push this on anyone's blind except the shortstack, and possibly even his some of the time.

You will rarely be that far behind with KQ (results aside), and your are hardly in what I'd call good enough chip position to sit back and wait for hands.

Even if the BB is a loose caller I still like the push. With 2000ish TC, however, I'd avoid mixing it up with him.

Slim Pickens

03-09-2005, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But when you're Big Stack do you really call with garbage when someone raises into you? I don't, I think, "Damn that guy must have a pretty big hand to be raising into the chip leader like that."

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't call with garbage, but if the big stack is the typical low buy-in big stack, I think he will. As a preview of my unpublished (and by that I mean low-content posted) findings, a lot of the players at the 10's, especially those tending to collect large stacks of chips by winning a few questionable hands, call steals with a very predictable range of crap in addition to legitimate hands. This includes any ace and low PP's. Has anyone else noticed this? Knowing this, I'd be more likely to push TT-88 or AJ-A7 than KQ, but probably not any of those. Maybe at higher buy-ins people are more gifted about their calling hand selection, but I doubt it at the 20's.

Personally, I think I'm pushing AA-JJ, AK-AJ, maybe TT, and folding everything else. If the BB has AK, either suck out or fire up another tournament. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Slim

pokerlaw

03-09-2005, 02:51 PM

I fold here. Wait till big stack gets out of a hand before you start pushing w questionable hands like KQ.

"KQ is a piece of cheese in NL Hold em. I treat it like 23." TJ Coutier
(quote may be slightly off, but you get the idea - It isnt that great of a hand to push with. A2o is a favorite)

Slim Pickens

03-09-2005, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
pushing w questionable hands like KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]
I push KQ against everyone except the big stack. Hero is set up perfectly for stealing on every hand except this one. I'd rather push the 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif and an Omar Vizquel rookie card with the head missing two or three hands later than KQ here. See why? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Here's my thought process for deciding whether or not to steal. Usually, at least two out three have to be favorable.

1) What is my position? Alternately, how many people are between me and the daylight of an uncontested pot, how many of them have me covered, and by how much?

2) What is the game situation? Will my opportunities be better in future hands, or is this the best I get?

3) What are my cards? If I'm called, what are my chances against the range of hands with which I'll be called by the various players left to act?

Honestly, I think this KQ hand fails on all three.

Slim

adanthar

03-09-2005, 03:09 PM

When do the blinds go to 150/300, and as importantly, will Villain raise your BB or just call when it is folded to him?

pooh74

03-09-2005, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When do the blinds go to 150/300, and as importantly, will Villain raise your BB or just call when it is folded to him?

[/ QUOTE ]

finally...good Qs...bc as a previous poster said "the blinds are still low" is not true...hero has ~5 BBs...he almost always has to deal with BigStack on one side of him or the other...only 1/4 hands can he pick on the other stacks and then only when BS folds UTG.

Results aside, pushing here is not a "bad" move IMO.

sfer

03-09-2005, 04:17 PM

Not when the BB has a comfortable enough stack to be willing to gambool, and not from UTG when I'm not desperate to stay alive vis-a-vis the other stacks. Further, the SB is short enough to easily call with a wide range of hands, only a few I'd like to see.

Slim Pickens

03-09-2005, 06:02 PM

Yeah... absolutely critcal part of the tournament situation: when are the blinds going up?

OK, I want to know if I'm thinking about this the right way. I'm probably due for another "This advice sucks." smackdown. I guess I'm assuming a lot about the skill (or lack thereof) of the other players. Also, everyone else at the table has to steal over Big Stack. Hero does not. I think Hero will get a better shot than the KQ hand.

next hand: Big Stack is on SB, Hero is on BB. Hero can steal if Big Stack completes (and don't underestimate the stupidity of a lot of low buy-in players. They'll limp KJs UTG and fold to a push way more often than they limp AA UTG. AA or KK is usually a minraise.) Big Stack may also fold SB. Don't ask me why but it happens.

2 hands later: Big Stack is Button, Hero is SB. Hero can push if Big Stack folds.

3 hands later: Big Stack is CO, Hero is Button. Hero can push if Big Stack folds.

4 hands later: Big Stack is UTG. Hero is CO. Hero can push if Big Stack folds.

5 hands later: Hero is UTG. Big stack is BB. Hero is in a bad spot, which is surprisingly similar to the one he's in now.