Tourneys vs Ring Games

[scotty34]

I am somewhat new to poker, only been playing for about 6 months, and I've only played online for the last month and a half. I'm doing quite well bonus whoring right now, but I want to figure out where to focus most of my energy. I have played mostly low stakes ring games up to this point (and doing well in those) as well as a few SnG's and MTT's. I find I enjoy the tournament style much more, as it is very dynamic and requires a lot of thought instead of just mindless point-and-clicking.

I've only played about 15 SnG's, which were usually the Party 10+1's. Despite this small number, I've found that they are fairly easy. People are generally not that difficult to read, and are quite passive and can be pushed off by solid aggressive play (do people agree with this assessment?). I've finished ITM 9 times, including 4 1sts. I am confident that I could consistently beat this game (I know I've been running better than can likely be achieved in the long run) with some practise and study.

Anyways, on to my real questions. What is the profitability of SnG's vs ring games? I would assume variance is much higher, and longer losing streaks would be endured. How much could a solid winning player make per hour 4-tabling the 10+1's? 20's? 30's? (I only have tourney experience playing 1 table at this point, but I have no trouble playing 4 with ring games, and I'm sure I could eventually reach that point with tourneys). Also, what is the difficulty difference between the 10, 20 and 30 dollar tournaments?

If I am willing to study and practise, which would be more profitable down the road? SnG's or ring games? I would like to be playing poker as a secondary source of income this summer while I am out of school. Final question: what are some good books to study for tournament poker (I'm assuming TPFAP is the obvious answer, but are there more?)

Thanks for your responses

[Seadood228]

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Anyways, on to my real questions. What is the profitability of SnG's vs ring games?

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This question is difficult to answer because, theoretically, neither game is more profitable if you are a winning player. Assuming you have a decent ROI or BB/hr rate, you can respectively move up or down limits to achieve whatever profit you are looking for. (see next question)

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I would assume variance is much higher, and longer losing streaks would be endured.

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Actually I think the opposite is true. SNGs are definitely streaky, but in the long run I think you will endure less prolonged losing streaks. That's one of the reasons why SNG bankroll requirements are less than the ring games. Let's say you want to make $8/hr, your likely limit would be the 3/6 table or a $30 SNG. In order to play comfortably (and we all have our own definition of that /images/graemlins/smile.gif), you'd probably want to have 40 buyins or 400 bets. This should be enough to cover any prolonged swings in either game. Note how the requirement for SNGs is $1320 wheras it's $2400 for the ring games.

In the short term, things will appear more volatile, but long-term the SNGs aren't as swingy. I can't comment on the big limits though.

Going back to the first question, I think the profitability of a game is a function of bankroll required. So it looks like SNGs are more profitable because it takes less roll to earn the same. This DOES NOT take bonus whoring into effect, however.

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How much could a solid winning player make per hour 4-tabling the 10+1's? 20's? 30's? (I only have tourney experience playing 1 table at this point, but I have no trouble playing 4 with ring games, and I'm sure I could eventually reach that point with tourneys). Also, what is the difficulty difference between the 10, 20 and 30 dollar tournaments?

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4 tabling, I'll lay out these estimates.

$10s - $12/hr
$20s - $20/hr
$30s - $32/hr

These are just estimates, and a better or worse player should hover within $5/hr of these numbers IMO.

[spentrent]

Do some math. You should be able to keep a 20-30% ROI while 4- or even 8-tabling Party's $10+1 games. What's your goal? 500 a week? Play 227 a week with an ROI of 20%. Or play half as many $20+2 games...

Regarding books, TPFAP has only two chapters that will help you: "The Gap Concept" and "All-in Strategy."

Honestly, the posts in this forum are a lot more useful for the student of short-stack-fast-blind SNG structure than any book on the market. Until AleoMagus publishes his book, that is /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[scotty34]

I remember a while back reading a thread where someone mentioned they had a coaching setup with a student for each level up to the 100 dollar games, or something to that effect. Who was this poster, I want to say ilya or Irieguy (I'm pretty sure it started with an 'i'), but I really don't remember for sure. I am curious to know the details of this arrangement.

[spentrent]

Irieguy posted an update thread in addition to the original thread. Search for his posts.