My Hand Against Johnny Chan

[David Sklansky]

The chips were virtually dead even. Forty thousand each. Two thousand, four thosand blinds. I'm in the big blind. Chan limps with T9. Flop comes QT9 with two diamonds. I bet $4000. What's your recommendation for him?

[ononimo]

call your bet and see the turn. if the turn is harmless (i.e. no diamond, Q, K, or J), come over the top with pot-sized bet/raise.

[Paradigm]

Fold. This is David Sklansky for heavens' sake!

In actuality, I think I would think about raising to 8000, but I also think I would instead call for value. This is a very tough scenario, I'm interested in the result.

[Ianco15]

Push this flop. This takes away the odds to draw to a flush or straight.

[obeythekitten]

fold or push...there are way too many possibilities to be bullied off his hand on 4th and 5th street even though on the flop he *probably* has the best hand

simply raising is probably the worst move he can make as it gives you the chance to push to which he would almost certainly fold

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
call your bet and see the turn. if the turn is harmless (i.e. no diamond, Q, K, or J), come over the top with pot-sized bet/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a play i would never have made but i like it. either this or push.

i think doing any sort of raise except a push is the worst possible play and i know if i was in this situation i probably would have raised it to 12k or so. but that sounds bad when thinking about it. no way you can fold this

[obeythekitten]

[ QUOTE ]
no way you can fold this

[/ QUOTE ]

its a heads up game, there will certainly be a better place to get your money in than this.

[ononimo]

Post deleted by ononimo

[Ianco15]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no way you can fold this

[/ QUOTE ]

its a heads up game, there will certainly be a better place to get your money in than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flopping two pair heads up and having someone bet into you is a perfect spot to get all your money in. You're probably ahead right now and by pushing you can take away your opponent's odds to draw out.

[ononimo]

Post deleted by ononimo

[housenuts]

yes. i don't think you can say you will certainly have better spots to put your money in.

[Ianco15]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
either this or push.

[/ QUOTE ]

a push on the turn is probably the better move, actually, given the stack sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you give your opponent a cheap turn? In a ring limit game I would agree that this is a spot to call the flop and raise the turn if nothing scary falls, but this is a completely different situation. The pot is already fairly large. Put your opponent to a decision for all his chips now.

[curtains]

I would move allin.

[ShawnHoo]

Push. Too many turn cards could kill our action (or our hand, for that matter).

[morello]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no way you can fold this

[/ QUOTE ]

its a heads up game, there will certainly be a better place to get your money in than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 2k/4k blinds and a 40k stack? Are you nuts?

[bogey]

allin

[That guy]

tough spot but you can't lay down 2-pair with blinds this high. push.

[bobby rooney]

A lot of people have said that you need to push to charge the draws the max. However, in my opinion the push lets your opponent off two cheaply if you in fact have the best hand. I like the idea of raising right on the flop to at least about 12K. People here have said this is bad because you allow your opponent to come over the top allin and that you would have to fold. I think the idea that you would have to fold is wrong. At the point where there is that much money in the pot, you are getting good odds and I think you have to call because there is a great chance you have the best hand and even if you don't you likely have a few outs to the boat. So I would raise the turn but not with the intention of folding but rather to lure my opponent to get his entire stack in when I think I am the favorite.

[ononimo]

this isn't meant as a critique but as a genuine question:

if you raise, and he flat calls (probably not the best move on his part but possible), and a scare card (diamond or 4 to a straight) hits the turn and he bets into you for the rest of your stack, what do you do?

[obeythekitten]

say you were Sklansky and flopped the straight or even the straight flush draw, think of how youd play this...i really think this is a trap on his part.

[IronUnkind]

I probably push all in, but I might consider a raise of 8k with the intent of calling an all in reraise.

[Ianco15]

[ QUOTE ]
say you were Sklansky and flopped the straight or even the straight flush draw, think of how youd play this...i really think this is a trap on his part.

[/ QUOTE ]
If it is a trap, youre SOL then. With the blinds this high and the hand you're holding, I can't see how can get away from this. I believe the correct play is too push.

[TStoneMBD]

he should make it 20k. he is letting you know that you are pot committed and if he is bluffing he gets away for less than if he had pushed.

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
he should make it 20k. he is letting you know that you are pot committed and if he is bluffing he gets away for less than if he had pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

so are you saying make it 20k to pretend like you are pot committed but if he pushes you lay down?

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
call your bet and see the turn. if the turn is harmless (i.e. no diamond, Q, K, or J), come over the top with pot-sized bet/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

my vote for this

[That guy]

If it is a trap, youre SOL then

agreed... there is a decent chance you are trapped here but there is also a good chance Skansky would check-raise all-in if he had something. If Chan didn't flop something here, he just folds and Sklansky loses his customer if he flopped the nuts.

after watching a lot of Chan on TV, he seems to like to call down a lot so he may have called here to try to keep the pot size down and also represent a straight or flush draw.

if a scare card comes, he can fold to a big bet...

this isn't how I would play it with blinds this high but that is because Johnny Chan is a donkey... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

we know that Sklansky would push this hand if he caught something...

[pokerponcho]

I like betting 12k, 13k, something like that too. You have to force your opponents to make a mistake, right? Overbet the pot, but going all-in forces your opponent to make a good fold or make a good call. A straight or a flush draw would make a mistake by calling this raise.

But, what would you do if he came over the top of that raise? I don't think it's likely an all-in bet on the flop would be a straight, or a flush draw. Maybe a combination draw. It's not going to be a scratch bluff, too risky. I'd be scared if after you make that large overbet he shoves over the top of you in that spot. But heads-up, you gotta think you are good, so, I'd call. If he flopped a straight, those are the breaks.

If he calls, hits a diamond, shoves in on you, call. It's too likely he was on a straight draw (like QJ) and is trying to buy his way out. Or maybe he has one diamond and not two and he is continuing to semibluff. I'd pay him off in an instant.

If a straight card came and he shoved in, I'd be more worried. But since you don't know which draw he was on or if he was on a draw at all. So I'd call, if he hit his straight, oh well.

pokerponcho

[Iconoclastic]

What kind of hand can Villain hold that would bet 4000 on a draw heavy board? Either a very strong hand (nut straight) or a draw. If I was Johnny and had any kind of read on Villain, it'd be easily between folding and pushing. In my limited experience when a player bets so little at these blinds it's likely begging for action. I'd muck the cursed orange and my cards along with it. It's not a huge pot at that point to play for my tournament life.

I'd have to know why Johnny didn't raise preflop as well as the general table dynamics before this hand to have better information, but that's my line based on what little David posted.

[SeriousStudent]

Johnny Chan thought process-

Sklansky knows I could limp with any two of these cards pre flop - Q9, QT, T9 and have two pair easily, or a Jsmall diamonds giving me the flush and straight draws. But yet he bet into me. He could have the KJ of diamonds giving him the straight and almost nut flush draw.

He bet 1/2 the pot -giving me 3:1 odds to call. Why would he give me odds to call if I have the Jx diamonds? Or the likely hand of two pair, the odds he's giving me of 3:1 must appear to be good enough to call, but must not be good enough because he wouldn’t give them to me unless I am already beat and have just 4 outs. So I have to conclude he has the straight already and probably 2 diamonds. So I should fold.

But he knows I’ll think this way, and maybe he is betting with nothing and giving me good odds so that I will conclude he has a great hand and fold. In that case I would raise.
But my guess is he is just randomizing whether he does the opposite, with 75% on the “right “ play and 25% on the opposite.

So I’m going to fold.

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
If it is a trap, youre SOL then

agreed... there is a decent chance you are trapped here

[/ QUOTE ]

why is there a decent chance that you're trapped? i'm not sure but sklansky probably pushes KJ preflop because it's a 60% favourite against a random hand. 62% if it's suited. so the only hand he could really be trapping with is J8 because he's pushing any pockets that would make sets on this board too. he's not trying to trap with any 2 pair hand with this board, so really all he can be trapping with is J8. what's the likelihood of that? not very good. and if he has it, well what can you do.

[housenuts]

i am leaning more and more towards calling. it's only 4,000. you have 6 outs to a boat. and if he is trapping and you make your boat on the turn fireworks will likely go off and you'll win with the boat. if a scare card comes you can easily fold and still have alot of chips.

if you don't make your boat, and it's a rag like the 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif you have a decision to make if he pushes. but really paying 4,000 on the flop is well worth it.

[Nick B.]

David, I just wanted to say thank you for posting this. The comedy in some of these replies is way up there.

[housenuts]

Nick please post your line.

[Ianco15]

Folding is not the correct play. With less than 10 big blinds if you fold, you dont have too much time to wait for a better hand than two pair.

[kmvenne]

A single pair hand is gonna do a lot more exploring then a half pot bet most the time in my opinion. That leaves just a few options. If it's a blocking bet to see a free draw, then I say let him draw, as many draws on this board have the implied odds on the flop for any price, but not the turn. If it's a made hand bigger then bottom two, then I say call and see if the poker gods slow him down.

If Sklansky is on the big draw, Chan can price those draws out with one to come. If Sklansky has a made hand here slightly beating bottom two, a lot of the possible turn cards will slow him down. I think calling allows David to better define his hand in this situation, giving Chan additional information. This allows David better bluffing equity, but Chan wasn't gonna make anything extra off a bluff on the flop, where he can only get himself in trouble against a lot of calls he either only slightly welcomes or hates to see.

On some higher level, Sklansky has to feel this pot is rather vital, as the winner of it has about a 3-2 chip lead. I don't think a min bet bluff on the flop is the move he would choose in this situation to gain vital swing in the match dynamic, although I don't put it past him 100%. I just think much more likely lines exist.

Bottom line, Chan needs to know more to play the defining hand of the tourney right here, since picking up a fold seems highly unlikely to me. Call and see a card and an action.

[TStoneMBD]

uh... no... im not laying down 2pair here getting 3:1 lol.

[jgorham]

It seems that a piece of this hand is missing, namely that Chan must have checked the flop, as he was SB and first to act. That doesn't really change anything, but thought I would throw it out there.

Anyone who said to fold this hand to the 1/2 pot bet is welcome to play heads up with me at any time for any price.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that a piece of this hand is missing, namely that Chan must have checked the flop, as he was SB and first to act. That doesn't really change anything, but thought I would throw it out there.

Anyone who said to fold this hand to the 1/2 pot bet is welcome to play heads up with me at any time for any price.

[/ QUOTE ]

HU sb=button

[curtains]

Everyone is overthinking this. Folding is terrible, and even considering a fold is terrible.

[Bigdaddydvo]

Push. I think the poker axiom "better to win a small pot than lose a big one" applies well here. The majority of the the hands that Johnny is in serious trouble against, David would have raised before the flop. These include QQ and KJ. I think the chance that David has 99 or TT is significantly less since Johnny holds one of each, so we'll discount those possibilities. David holding J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifx /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, giving him straight and flush draws makes him about a 52% favorite on the flop. The only non-set, non-made-straight hand that gives Johnny serious trouble is Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, which makes him a 2:1 dog on the flop. Again this is a hand I'd forsee David raising PF, but he has indicated that he wasn't looking at his cards completely for randomization purposes, so we can't completely discount him holding any hand.

Another set of possibilities I'd consider would be JXo (giving only the straight draw) and a small diamond suited connector like 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (giving only the flush draw). These scenerios make Johnny a 2:1 favorite.

Additionally, David could be taking a shot at the flop with a Queen and lousy kicker. David is a 2.5:1 underdog in this case.

The last one to consider is that David has absolutely nothing and is taking a shot for 2:1 on his money with the Pot. If we believe Dan Harrington, this happens 10% of the time.

In summary, I think we're ahead a large % of the time here, a coinflip a smaller %, and against a monster made hand or monster draw just a tiny % of the time. There's a decent pot out there...push and try to take it down right now.

[Rushmore]

Push.

At this point, the $10K in the middle is very valuable, and two pair is likely the best hand.

Trying to interpret what David's $4K bet means in this situation is probably -EV.

There's a bigger picture.

[OrianasDaad]

Getting 3-1 on a call with what is very likely to be the best hand *right now*, folding is out of the question.

The board is very coordinated. Call, and push all-in on a river blank. The turn card will drastically change the value of Chan's hand.

[WillMagic]

Folding is most definitely awful. I don't like the idea of a raise to 12K, either, as you basically give a jack 5-1 implied odds and make a call correct. Pushing seems quite good here, as it protects your hand against basically any draw your opponent can have on this draw-heavy board, and the blind/stack size ratio is such that you aren't laying such horrible odds when DS does wake up with KJ or QT.

Will

[WillMagic]

What's your plan if the turn is harmful?

Give up?

Why put yourself in this when you can just protect your hand on the flop?

Will

[The Truth]

Is it not possible for david to have 9-4, 10-2.
I would guess that he doesn't check fold every hand heads up unless he has 2 pair beat.

I dont like pushing. You have 40k in chips, and you will be risking your tourney life over 12k. If david calls, you are most likely out. If he folds, you have a 10k chip lead woohoo, you dont knock him out.
Alot of other stuff comes into play heads up besides the hands. Previous actions, current agression of the opponent, will david semibluff, or bluff reraise all in if johnny raises the pot size?
I dont think we have enough information to answer the question with any high degree of accuracy.

Folding is bad. All-in is bad. call, maybe. the 20k raise to seem pot commited seemed decent as well.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
David, I just wanted to say thank you for posting this. The comedy in some of these replies is way up there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you going to enlighten us with the correct answer?

[Nick B.]

People. There are 20BB's total in play. There is no reason to get fancy here. Push all in. David's bet is probably a standard bet. I doubt he thought what Chan limped with, he might have a hand, or he might be taking a stab at a pot that is a significant amount of the chips in play. There is no reason to give a cheap card to save some chips in case you are beat. There is no time for that. You have two pair on a very coordinated board which DS may or may not have a piece of. Just move all in and be indifferent to whether he calls or not.
-He might have a draw and call, and you are happy.

-He might have a draw and fold and you are happy that you took a decent pot, when he had plenty of outs.

-He might have you beat and call, which there is nothing you can do about it flopping two pair HU with such short stacks.

-He might call with a Q, and you have a good chance of winning the tournament.

-He might have absolutely nothing and fold, but with such short stacks, I doubt he would take another stab at a coordinated board with nothing, so you don't lose anything

[Voltron87]

If I'm Chan I raise to 8K. One crappy little bet deserves another.

[woodguy]

Push.

It does two things.

#1) It can look like a draw trying to push you out and you may call with a pair thinking you are ahead

#2) If you are on the draw it gives you incorrect odds to continue with the hand.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your recommendation for him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Shoot the hostage.

-- M. Ruff

[gumpzilla]

One thing that virtually nobody has pointed out as far as I can tell is that Chan specifically has bottom two here. A queen or a pair of jacks, kings or aces is going to have five turn outs and eight river outs by making trips or pairing the board without pairing the 9 or T. So even the hands that aren't obvious draws are going to have more outs than usual, because bottom two is so vulnerable. Hands like QJ are going to have the open-ender outs as well as lots of outs to better two pair. So Chan really needs to defend his hand here. Pushing over the top is how I'd go here.

[slogger]

This post is a great example of how an opponent knowing game theory will mess with your head.

This is not foldable to a 4000 bet.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of hand can Villain hold that would bet 4000 on a draw heavy board? Either a very strong hand (nut straight) or a draw. If I was Johnny and had any kind of read on Villain, it'd be easily between folding and pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember, Villian is god (or if god exists, is like Villian). He knows how to use game theory to randomize his betting, and Johnny knows this.

[wjmooner]

[ QUOTE ]
People. There are 20BB's total in play. There is no reason to get fancy here. Push all in. David's bet is probably a standard bet. I doubt he thought what Chan limped with, he might have a hand, or he might be taking a stab at a pot that is a significant amount of the chips in play. There is no reason to give a cheap card to save some chips in case you are beat. There is no time for that. You have two pair on a very coordinated board which DS may or may not have a piece of. Just move all in and be indifferent to whether he calls or not.
-He might have a draw and call, and you are happy.

-He might have a draw and fold and you are happy that you took a decent pot, when he had plenty of outs.

-He might have you beat and call, which there is nothing you can do about it flopping two pair HU with such short stacks.

-He might call with a Q, and you have a good chance of winning the tournament.

-He might have absolutely nothing and fold, but with such short stacks, I doubt he would take another stab at a coordinated board with nothing, so you don't lose anything

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't that difficult a problem to answer. Nick made fun of all of you and then showed why half of the posts in this thread are laughable.

WJ

[MMMMMM]

Yup.

[That guy]

It isn't that difficult a problem to answer. Nick made fun of all of you and then showed why half of the posts in this thread are laughable.

Many had the same response as Nick but didn't bother to be so smarmy about it relative to others responses...

[sam h]

Easy push for JC.

[valenzuela]

HU with those stacks and that board and ur hand u have 2 choices:
1) Push right away
2) Do a bit of acting and push.

[cwsiggy]

all in baby!

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
It isn't that difficult a problem to answer. Nick made fun of all of you and then showed why half of the posts in this thread are laughable.

Many had the same response as Nick but didn't bother to be so smarmy about it relative to others responses...

[/ QUOTE ]

[Iconoclastic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of hand can Villain hold that would bet 4000 on a draw heavy board? Either a very strong hand (nut straight) or a draw. If I was Johnny and had any kind of read on Villain, it'd be easily between folding and pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember, Villian is god (or if god exists, is like Villian). He knows how to use game theory to randomize his betting, and Johnny knows this.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Johnny knows that Villain knows that Johnny knows too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It comes down to personal reads. I disagree that pushing is the easy play just because of blinds. It's like saying that if you have a FH and you're sure your opponent has quads and talk yourself into a call just because, "What are the chances I'll see a better hand than a full house with blinds this high? Oh shucks I'll just call and hope he doesn't have me beat..." When I'm in situations like this without conscious reads I go with a subconscious "feeling". Fortunately for me most of the time that gut feeling is right.

[valenzuela]

Sklansky is most likely pushing with KJ, so you are worried about QT, Q9 , J8...I wouldnt fold jacks freflop with the stacks as 10x the bb.

[Michael Davis]

Anybody think the 8K in the pot was valuable enough for Sklansky to push on the flop?

-Michael

[InfernoLL]

So what you're saying is, whenever someone bets half the pot they have the nuts?

[housenuts]

i rule out Q9 and QT because I think sklansky would have bet more on the flop. unless he did some crazy math equation to figure out betting half the pot would be his most optimal play.

the only hand i'm really scared of is j8 but how scared can you be of 16 possibilities?

[Shajen]

THROW THE CARDS IN THE AIR AND RUN AWAY SCREAMING.

--thanks, AC /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[betgo]

This is a heads up match with shallow money and an unraised pot. The suggestions to fold are crazy. You are not getting away from this hand. The board is dangerous, but you have no reason to believe your opponent has any piece of it. Pushing to shut out draws seems like overkill heads up.

I would checkraise putting in an additional 1000 or so. I would then bet the turn pretty much whatever hits. I would probably push on the turn to pressure draws.

[goodFlop]

Sklansky really knows how to generate discussion and suspense /images/graemlins/tongue.gif If you all want to know what hand Sklansky had: here it is: (be forewarned) -- BTW, I got this from cardplayer:
http://www.cardplayer.com/tournament-log/?event_id=1840
THe link gives updates on the heads-up tourny

I wonder if David would post the hand if he was a dog in it. And also, as the lucky nature of heads-up play goes, David survived atleast two all-ins against Chan prior to the QT9 flop board hand (I pasted those other two hands for all to see as well)























--------------------------------
Date / Time: 2005-03-06 00:10:00
Title: Johnny Chan v. David Sklansky: Sklansky Takes the Chip Lead
Log: After a flop of Q-10-9, Johnny Chan and David Sklansky are both all in. Johnny Chan shows 10-9 for bottom two pair, but Sklansky shows Q-10 for top two pair. Chan needs a nine to win or a runner-runner straight to chop, but the last two cards are A-5, offering none of the help that Sklansky received with his chops. Sklansky takes a commanding chip lead over Johnny Chan.



-------------------------------------
Date / Time: 2005-03-05 23:50:00
Title: Johnny Chan v. David Sklansky: Chopping to Stay Alive
Log: Johnny Chan pushed all in with pocket fives, and David Sklansky called with A-6 on a short stack. The flop came 10-9-7, giving Sklansky a gut-shot straight draw to go along with his overcards. But the turn card was a J, and his gut-shot straight draw would now cause a chop. Sure enough, an 8 appears on the river, and Sklansky lives to fight another hand.
And that other hand comes along just seven minutes later, when both players are all in preflop. David Sklansky has A-J, but Johnny Chan has him dominated with A-Q. But when the board comes 6-2-2-7-6, the players chop once again. David Sklansky has been behind both times, and the board has saved him.

[NorCalJosh]

my recommendation would end up with him losing all of his chips to you. so i guess that recommendation doesnt mean very much. at least its good to know that for at least one time in my life, i would have played a hand exactly as johnny chan did. even if he misplayed it.

i guess my reasoning for pushing would be that in order to be a big dog, you would have to have a range of hands that you probably would have raised with preflop, i.e. KJ, TT, 99, QQ. QT could possibly fit into those hands heads up, but i'm no heads up expert. so i would probably put you on some sort of draw, and do whatever i could to give you the incorrect odds to call and see if you can hit your draw.

but what do i know... not a lot, thats for sure.

[That guy]

its easy to say 'he sucked out' or the 'board saved him'... but on the other hand, if you are dealt AJ when your opponent gets AQ (in a heads-up/large-blind situation) that is bad luck to get dealt a good but second best hand... so Sklansky had bad luck to get the AJ but good luck to chop the pot.

[HelloGoodbye]

Even knowing the result, this is not a close decision. With the blinds at this stage, anything other than moving all-in is atrocious.

[JaBlue]

push.

[TheJackal]

Well there is no way I lay down the hand here, but pushing the flop maybe isn't the best option. I'd call and if a blank came off the turn and I was fired at again, than I would push. This way if a scare card comes off, I can get off the hand and still only be slightly behind in chips. I think it's safer on that type of a board to take one card off before going nuts.

[housenuts]

i can now see 2 reasons for simply calling the flop bet which is what i advocated before

a) if a scare card comes on the turn and sklansky bets, chan can safely fold having only invested 4k.

b) if a scare card comes on the turn, and sklansky doesn't bet, chan can check behind. if sklansky checks again on the river chan can probably attempt to pick up this pot. or just see a free showdown.

c) if a scare card doesn't come sklansky will be acting first and almost surely bet, possibly even push (now knowing he has 2 pair) at this point chan would probably call. or if sklansky put out another small bet, chan would push and sklansky would call, and it would be the same as if he had pushed on the flop, but at least he gave himself those other ways to win the pot.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
call your bet and see the turn. if the turn is harmless (i.e. no diamond, Q, K, or J), come over the top with pot-sized bet/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

My vote is for this.

My second vote is to get out of a game where he cannot mathematically have any sort of significant edge.

[HelloGoodbye]

Calling is NOT giving him more ways to win the pot, it's giving him another way to lose the pot. At that stage of the tournament, 2 pair is a monster. If you lose hand over hand, so be it, but you will be a long-term signficant loser if you play hands like that, in that situation, weak-tight.

[bobby rooney]

You are in a tough spot and you make the best decision you can make based on your read of what the other player has. It would have to be a monster draw to be able to flatcall a raise on the flop, because wouldn't your opponent be afraid that if the draw did not hit that he'd get blown off the hand with a big bet on the turn (a complete disaster considering the percentage of his stack already in the pot)?

Actually, if my opponent flatcalls after a big raise on the flop, I would be more likely to put my opponent on a made hand. Basically, two pair is too much of a monster heads-up to throw away unless you are damn sure you are beat so I think that when I raise the flop, I'm pretty much committed to the hand. After all, even top pair with a weak kicker is a monster heads up and my opponent might be willing to get his chips in with a worse made hand than bottom two. If I've run into a set or top two, there's not much I can do except lose all my chips.

[bobby rooney]

The problem I have with your analysis is that a half-pot bet could easily just be "taking a stab" or, as Harrington calls it, a probe bet. You bet out whether you have anything or not if you think your opponent will fold enough to make the bet profitable. Here Chan did not raise preflop, so it is quite possible that he is weak. I think taking a stab here by Sklansky is a good and obvious play because it puts Chan in a bad spot. Is he betting because he has something or because I didn't raise preflop in position? It's a bet that will tend to pick up a small pot whenever your opponent has missed the flop and it doesn't get you committed.

Anyway, it seems like you would either need psychic powers or x-ray vision to be able to just throw away two pair for one bet heads-up in this spot.

[housenuts]

where's the follow up from sklansky?

[TransientR]

As Salt-N-Pepa' rapped: "Push it, push it real good!"

Frank

[kemystery]

I raise to T16K, leaves money for a nice bet all in on the turn, if DS flopped the joint here you go broke i GUESS

[meow_meow]

Can someone explain to me the point of this hand? I just can't see how anyone could have played it any differently, given the blinds.
I guess what I'm really asking is "if their positions were reversed, would David (or anyone else for that matter) have been able to get away from this?"
I lean toward a "no" on this, but my opinion isn't worth much.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
The chips were virtually dead even. Forty thousand each. Two thousand, four thosand blinds. I'm in the big blind. Chan limps with T9. Flop comes QT9 with two diamonds. I bet $4000. What's your recommendation for him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know the results nor read this thread and of course meta-game matters (e.g., how aggressive have both of you been?) but here goes.

Chan has a very good but not huge hand. Against a limp (middle cards hit limps)a DS bet probably means good hand, big draw, or a draw/pair combo.

One line I like is calling the flop. Calls here can be scary and freeze the player (DS) out of position. After a call, pot is 16K and you each have 32K left. If a blank comes and DS checks, it is time to overbet all-in. Betting pot size allows big draws (or pair draws) odds to get there.

If DS bets pot or close to it (let's say $12K) after a blank, Chan should call with the intention of folding to a huge river bet if any draw or pair draw type hand is made by DS.

Actually, the more I write the more I realize I don't know sh_t about no limit head up. I'll give up now and see what the smart people think /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

[Gordon Scott]

Call. If the turn rags off bet 4k. I smell a rat or it may just be garbage in the form of a probe bet. If Johnny reraises all in he'll only get called by a better hand. It's not clear what the 2 flush cards are and that could be a factor. If David has trash Johnny gains nothing by moving in but the money he already wins unimproved with a call. If David has the nuts and induces a bluff on a rag turn card I think Johnny can lay it down.

It almost looks like David has the current nuts with a redraw or a set and wants to give Johnny an easy call with about any piece of the flop.