Fold this turn when c/r'ed with KK?

[dark_horse]

I'm confident I did the right thing by raising the flop. If he was very strong he probably would have let me continue leading. Since he didn't 3-bet me on the flop, he either had a weak ace or another pair and was testing me. Or maybe he had a monster on the flop and wanted to get one extra SB in by c/r'ing me on the turn. I always find that play petty.

Bad turn bet? Bad call of the c/r? I got lucky on the river but it painfully looks like I'm beat on the turn by 2pair, a set, or a straight.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

[iluzion]

you've got 6 outs to beat Ax or QJ, 4 to beat Aces up, your getting 9 to 1 pot odds.. I think I'm calling because I would be pretty sure he would lead and at the least call your raise when you hit. Is this too loose of a call?

[dr. klopek]

I'd play this exactly the same, for whatever that might be worth.

[toss]

Flop raise is ok. You've got to bet the turn since you've raised the flop. I think you have odds to call that C/R.

[waynethetrain]

I'm sure I'll be in the minority on this, but I don't like the flop raise against 4 other players. About 30% (round numbers) of all the playable hands contain an Ace in them (for somewhat tight players). It you assume that weaker players tend to play Ace/rag more often, the percentage is probably even higher. I don't know the exact percentage of time 1 of these 4 players will have an Ace, but I'm guessing it's pretty darn high. Randomly it might be as high at 75%. Given that someone actually bet into the field from the 2nd spot (with players to come), I'd say that percentage is even higher in this case. 2 players already folded by the time it got to you, so I'm not sure what the raise does to protect your hand. You might KO the SB, but he might fold anyway. I think you are clearly behind more than 50% of the time after the flop. So I don't think the raise is a good value bet. However, you clearly had odds to call.

[flopwell]

[ QUOTE ]
It(sic) you assume that weaker players tend to play Ace/rag more often

[/ QUOTE ]<font color="red">
they absolutely do </font>
[ QUOTE ]
the percentage is probably even higher. I don't know the exact percentage of time 1 of these 4 players will have an Ace, but I'm guessing it's pretty darn high. Randomly it might be as high at 75%.

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> I agree that raising may not be the best option, but I think your guesstimate of 75% is pretty high</font>

[dark_horse]

my opponent had QJ and check-raised me when he turned two pair. He bet out on the flop to test where his second pair stood on the flop. The raise should have told him to fold. I love it when people bet/raise for info but then don't use the info well /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
my opponent had QJ and check-raised me when he turned two pair. He bet out on the flop to test where his second pair stood on the flop. The raise should have told him to fold. I love it when people bet/raise for info but then don't use the info well /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? This makes no sense dude. Had he bet the flop with Ax, should he have folded the best hand because a raise tells him that you have AK? /images/graemlins/confused.gif IOW, don't bet or raise for information because the info you glean will often be tainted.

I don't really get the flop raise either. I probably would have called the flop, called the turn and raised the river.

Brad

[dark_horse]

[ QUOTE ]
Huh? This makes no sense dude. Had he bet the flop with Ax, should he have folded the best hand because a raise tells him that you have AK? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't have Ax, he had second pair. If he had Ax, he would not have folded, nor would I expect him to at these stakes. If I knew he had an ace, I would not have raised. If he had an ace, I don't think he would have bet out.
[ QUOTE ]
IOW, don't bet or raise for information because the info you glean will often be tainted.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Betting out for info is useful if you're disciplined and can sometimes win you the pot right there. What does IOW stand for?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't really get the flop raise either. I probably would have called the flop, called the turn and raised the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you're re-raised on the river? Can you explain your line here?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
And if you're re-raised on the river? Can you explain your line here?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you have the nuts, you usually want to raise.

[dark_horse]

err, oops, sorry about that, wasn't thinking about the hand clearly when i wrote that last part.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
err, oops, sorry about that, wasn't thinking about the hand clearly when i wrote that last part.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also disagree when you say someone with Ax won't bet here. I see that move all the time at these limits.

[dark_horse]

Fine. So are you supposed to call down with your kings with an ace on the flop and just hope they don't have an ace? Raise or fold is the only thing I can see doing here. At least raising persuades them to check the turn. Not that I checked behind...