A steal and a spanking

[sfer]

Party 15/30. SB has normal 30ish/10ish stats. BB is a well respected mid/high/HUSH 2+2er.

Folded to me in the CO and I raise with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Button steps aside, SB 3-bets, BB caps, I fold. Yeah? With AJ/AT/KQ/KJ this is easy. 87?

[Nick C]

I probably would have called.

But since I don't really know if that's a good idea or not, I'm mostly responding to bump this and see what others say.

[cold_cash]

If I counted right when it comes back around to you capped you're getting 4.5:1 on a call.

I imagine the BB isn't screwing around, but even if he's got what we think he's got, I don't think you're worse than a 4.5:1 dog against both of these guys.

I guess it depends mostly on the range of hands you think you're up against, and how wild you think the post-flop action is going to be.

[sthief09]

yes. a pocket pair or a premium hand is all I'd call with there

[FrankieFish]

[ QUOTE ]
If I counted right when it comes back around to you capped you're getting 4.5:1 on a call.

I imagine the BB isn't screwing around, but even if he's got what we think he's got, I don't think you're worse than a 4.5:1 dog against both of these guys.

I guess it depends mostly on the range of hands you think you're up against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah calling here is great because of those preflop odds (that some of it is your cash don't matta). Plus you have an extremely disguised hand that should get paid off if you hit a draw.

[pyroponic]

I'd rather call with a suited connector as both players probably have the premium of the premium hands, if you had even a premium hand it is probably very dominated. I'd call since you already contributed a BB to the pot and the implied odds are real good.

[FrankieFish]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather call with a suited connector as both players probably have the premium of the premium hands, if you had even a premium hand it is probably very dominated. I'd call since you already contributed a BB to the pot and the implied odds are real good.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a suited connector?!?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather call with a suited connector as both players probably have the premium of the premium hands, if you had even a premium hand it is probably very dominated. I'd call since you already contributed a BB to the pot and the implied odds are real good.

[/ QUOTE ]


87s is dominated by pairs 88+. AQ is only dominated by 4 hands. further, with a suited connector, there's likely to be tons of action postflop and it'll be hard to see a cheap turn, which is ideally what you'd like. if the flop goes check-bet, you'll have to be very careful, as it's likely the SB will check raise. the only time you're safe to peel is if you flop a big draw or if it goes bet-call

[pyroponic]

I'd rather play 87s for another BB against these guys than AQ against a 3-betting and capping hand. If I don't flop a decent draw I can get away from it, if I flop an A or Q i'm probably paying off the winner.

[pyroponic]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a suited connector?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

If 87s is not a suited connector then what is a suited connector?

[mr pink]

i'd rather have AQ over 87s any day in this spot.

you're gonna have to hit the flop pretty hard and even then you might not get the odds to chase. you're gonna be looking at a bet and a raise coming to you a lot of the time here. or a check from the sb, bb bets, you call, sb check/raises, bb 3-bets, and you're f'd. there's just too much that could go wrong here imo. just fold and move.

[pyroponic]

Well i'd rather have any hand other than 87s and AQ in this spot, AQs is better but at least you're in position. AQo is usallly incorrect to call a raise with, I see calling 2 here just because the pot is big is a mistake unless i'm suited.

[FrankieFish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a suited connector?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

If 87s is not a suited connector then what is a suited connector?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I misread the first post where you said "I'd rather call with a suited connector." I thought you didn't notice that it actually was indeed a suited connector.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather play 87s for another BB against these guys than AQ against a 3-betting and capping hand. If I don't flop a decent draw I can get away from it, if I flop an A or Q i'm probably paying off the winner.

[/ QUOTE ]


if you fold 87s, it means you're flopping a -EV spot
if you play AQ to the river, it means you're flopping a +EV spot. I'll take +EV over -EV. you can take cheap over potentially expensive

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Well i'd rather have any hand other than 87s and AQ in this spot, AQs is better but at least you're in position. AQo is usallly incorrect to call a raise with, I see calling 2 here just because the pot is big is a mistake unless i'm suited.

[/ QUOTE ]


AQo is just a better hand than 87s. you're trying to think in terms of winning big pots or avoiding losing big pots. it doesn't work that way. better hands win better money. AQo is a better hand in any position, including on the button after 7 limpers

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Party 15/30. SB has normal 30ish/10ish stats. BB is a well respected mid/high/HUSH 2+2er.

Folded to me in the CO and I raise with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Button steps aside, SB 3-bets, BB caps, I fold. Yeah? With AJ/AT/KQ/KJ this is easy. 87?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a game where blind stealing/defense is commonplace, I think you could have picked a better hand to pimp with. Oh yeah, and there is no way you can call the cap.

[MarkD]

I think the initial opening was a bit much, but I do it too sometimes.

I think this is a call though now that you've put your foot out. You are essentially getting 5-1 immediate odds since no way is the SB going to fold here. Also, your hand will be easy to play postflop since you do know where you are at.

What concerns me is the fact that your implied odds are not that great because it is expensive for you to see the flop but you are not a 5-1 dog in this spot and you will tend to make easy +EV decisions post flop here.

ps. My first thought was that this was a fold but further reflection lead me to change my mind. The simple fact here is that you will not be dominated in this spot and the pot is laying you a decent price to see the flop and once you see the flop your decisions are not going to be close - they are going to be either +EV or -EV and I think they will be clear in one direction or another (for the most part). It sucks that you are putting 4 bets in pre-flop with 87s but that's the risk you take for opening with it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, and there is no way you can call the cap.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? You are getting 5-1 immediate odds on your hand in a situation where you are about a 3-1 dog against a resonable range of hands for your opponents. Plus you will not be in tough decision making territory post-flop and you have position.

[mikeyvegas]

I agree with mark on this one. This hand is too easy to play post flop, and you're immediate odds are to good pf.

On a side note, I think you should post more Mark.

[sthief09]

while not dominated in the same way AJ or KQ are, 87s is still often dominated. AA-88 dominates it. with AJ you're unsure of whether your A or J is good if you hit it. the same is true with 87s. you can hit it and not know if you're good. you still have to hit twice just like any other dominated hand. in this spot he's often against at least one pair

[Nate tha' Great]

Awful fold IMO. There are a lot of worse hands to have in this spot.

[Shillx]

Something like KJ is garbage here, but you probably have 2 live cards to play with in this spot. Getting 5:1 with position I don't think I would fold this here (also if image is anything you should call in this spot).

Brad

[MarkD]

I'm not disagreeing with you. You are often against one pair here. I'm saying that is ok.

I stand by what I said above. The hand plays easily post-flop because you have a good idea where you are and you stand to collect a fair number of bets post-flop as well (not a ton, but a few for sure) and you should be able to control the pot size to some extent (ie. keep it small) since you have position.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, and there is no way you can call the cap.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? You are getting 5-1 immediate odds on your hand in a situation where you are about a 3-1 dog against a resonable range of hands for your opponents. Plus you will not be in tough decision making territory post-flop and you have position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I need to reevaluate things. I suppose it is very likely that we have 2 live cards, and even if we are up against AA, we have massive implied odds. Maybe I just can't get over the initial steal attempt. Getting 5-1, I supposed this is similar to calling 2 cold with this holding on the button with 5 others in there, which is something I'd do without batting an eye.

[QTip]

I'm missing how this comes out to 5-1 immediate odds. Any help to show me how we come up with this # here.

[MarkD]

Nate,

I would probably fold in this spot if I had made the initial steal raise with a set of hands like:
KJo, KTo, QTo, ATo, etc.

Also, I would call with all of the above hands if they were suited.

Is this play more reasonable? Obviously my initial steal raise was correct with this range of hands but against the resteal attempt of the SB and the cap of the BB (who is a good player) I really can't like my hand and I don't like the way it will play post-flop here so I feel as this would be an easy fold with these types of hands.

I agree with you about 78s though (as I posted previously in this thread).

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm missing how this comes out to 5-1 immediate odds. Any help to show me how we come up with this # here.

[/ QUOTE ]

2+3+4+the one SB will surely call = 10. Hero has to put in 2. 10/2=5/1

[MarkD]

Sure.

Hero invested 2 sb's on the steal raise. The sb put in 3, the bb put in 4. We know that the SB is going to call and put in 4 here so 4 (sb) + 4 (bb) + 2 (hero) = 10 small bets and it costs hero 2 sb's to call when it comes back to him.

10-2 is 5-1.

[QTip]

Thanks gentlemen...I thought this was in reference to our hand equity or something and that didn't make sense to me.

Appreciate the help.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Nate,

I would probably fold in this spot if I had made the initial steal raise with a set of hands like:
KJo, KTo, QTo, ATo, etc.

Also, I would call with all of the above hands if they were suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mark,

I think you've got it about right. I'll confess that I rarely if ever fold here, on the theory that I've got two cards, two bets in the pot, and the Button, but it's probably best to get away from a hand like KT.

You need to be a little bit careful about assuming that the BB has a monster, especially if the SB is a LAG. For example, against an aggressive BB and a very aggressive SB, I'd probably be capping with hands like AJo and 77 and KQs from the BB.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Nate,

I would probably fold in this spot if I had made the initial steal raise with a set of hands like:
KJo, KTo, QTo, ATo, etc.

Also, I would call with all of the above hands if they were suited.

Is this play more reasonable? Obviously my initial steal raise was correct with this range of hands but against the resteal attempt of the SB and the cap of the BB (who is a good player) I really can't like my hand and I don't like the way it will play post-flop here so I feel as this would be an easy fold with these types of hands.

I agree with you about 78s though (as I posted previously in this thread).

[/ QUOTE ]


it's a good thing I like being wrong, because I've been automucking hands like QJs, KJs, ATs, AJo, KQo, etc. I'd only call tehre with AQo, AQs, AK, or pocket pairs. this, call changes if your raise comes from EP right?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I was going to chime in to say that a certain carpal would make this call 100% of the time because he flopped the nuts on me with it, but he already gave his opinions on it.

[pyroponic]

Does everyone agree that AQo is playable for 2 more bets here? Sure the pot is bigger, but I think this is a good time to get away...

The fact that 87s is dominated by 88-AA is irrelevant, we are not trying to win this pot with just a pair here. And we'd have to hit the flop pretty hard, but if you're good postflop I think this is a decent call.

[MarkD]

AQo would be a pretty clear play here for 2 more back to you. There are still a fair number of hands that you have beat (if you flop good) like TT or JJ and there are some hands that the BB could have that you have dominated such as AJs.

This situation has enough play involved in it that AQo could still be the best hand, and if not it certainly has better than 17% equity. What I mean by the above statement is this: hero opened from the button and the sb defended with a 3-bet (which is the normal play for the sb to make if he is going to defend and it does not mean that he has to have a monster hand - KJs or KQo would be plenty good enough to make this 3-bet) and the BB, who is a good player has seen all of this and figures that he has enough of a hand to play the pot and if he is going to play he should cap it and take the initiative and potentially get the button to fold since he could have some random crap hand like A4o which he won't want to play for 4 bets.

Yah, I feel that seeing the flop in this spot with AQo would be easy.

edit: that doesn't mean that I'm going to be putting 3 or 4 bb's into the pot on the turn when an ace flops. I would proceed cautiously, but I would proceed.

[MarkD]

If I had open raised from EP the entire meaning of the SB's 3-bet and BB's cap would be much different and I would be folding a lot of my dominated hands now. I would fold hands as strong as AJo but I may still play KJs and QJs. I would fold ATs though and KQo would definitely hit the muck.

I can honestly say this is one of the first times I have thought about this stuff much so take the above with a grain of salt.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

in a blind steal resteal situation yes, i would keep AQ. but just earlier today in a non blind situation i folded AQs to a cap, so it all really depends.

[pyroponic]

Yes, I guess it all depends on the stats of SB/BB, I think i'd be more inclined to play against these guys with AQo if they were TAGs/maniacs rather than a passive rock, fish, or calling station.

[MarkD]

No, it doesn't just depend on the stats of the SB and BB. It also depends on where you initially raised from and how they percieve you at the moment.

[sthief09]

I'm interested, because I've been mucking a LOT of hands in this spot recently. it's been happening at least a few times per 2000-hand session

[MarkD]

You should post some examples. It should be an interesting pre-flop discussion (yes, some of those discussions still exist). Maybe 3-5 examples in one post to discuss.

Honestly I can't say that I raise from EP and then it comes back to me for 2 more bets very often. But I am not playing the number of hands that some of you guys are.