Play along with me -- big blind garbage

[Greg J]

I thought this hand was interesting and illustrative for some newer players. All are welcome to take part of course, but this post is mainly for you newer guys.

Reads: SB is tight - no other read (newer player). No read on CO, he is new (first hand). Other players are rather unremarkable, but like to call. Overall this is a pretty decent table, and I have done prety well.

Think carefully about what you would do, and please explain why. Thanks.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero...?

[Thigh]

I fold or bet here. Reason: This hand is mediocre, or a little less. Too many overcards that can fall on the board. If I just check, I'm not getting enough information out of the other players. Then again, betting might not either, but I would rather take a chance that others fold, and that maybe someone raises, giving me some information.

[Dead]

Hero open-folds.

[DMBFan23]

FWIW, the HPFAP line on these junk hands (I think this exact hand is used, except the K is a Q) is "it depends". with this many players in, I like a check. you're out of position, and your kicker blows. I'm not advocating a fold, but a bet out into the field won't do you much IMO. if CO bets then you can raise it, but if it goes bet-raise you'll be glad you didnt bet. also, you don't have to worry about charging draws, there aren't any here really. your main concern is overcards. you can call and draw if an EP bets and you're almost closing the action, as you have no reason to believe your outs are tainted here.

[joeski19]

Well normally I like to bet out here to see were I'm at. Although you mention the others like to call. Not to mention UTG &amp; UTG+1 limped in. If they are limping in from EP they probably have a decent hand. So I see two or three options here, depending on their read of me.

1. Bet out to represent a good hand.
2. Check fold.
3. Check raise to represent the King.

I don't like this hand so much, bad kicker, small pot, so I'm going with #2 Check Fold.

[DMBFan23]

so you check, UTG bets, everyone calls, 9 SB to you and you're folding?

[Greg J]

Well, some of you guys don't seem that sure here. I beleive this is a clear check/fold situation. Seriously, the pot is small, and your hand is not very good, but hey... at least your position totally blows. You check and hope it's checked through. It someone bets you fold. It's really that simple.

Okay now, think even more carefully about this next move.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, what should Hero do?

[davelin]

Raise

[Thigh]

Didn't even look at the pot size, my bad. So now that I've made the wrong decision, I'll move along to my next wrong decision.

I bet here, and call a raise. If it comes back to me 2 bets, I fold.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
so you check, UTG bets, everyone calls, 9 SB to you and you're folding?

[/ QUOTE ]
This would be rare, but if it did happen it's a clear call.

[MarkGritter]

It might just be the cold drugs talking, but I'd raise here. Middle two pair is easily counterfeited, going for overcalls is dangerous.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise

[/ QUOTE ]

[DMBFan23]

yeah I suppose I should clarify.

probably &gt; 70% of the time it's gonna be a check fold, but there are times when you'll want to draw or possbily, (let's say &lt;5% of the time) raise. I think you can draw getting ~ 7:1 here (or better) depending on where the bet comes from (this affects your implied odds)

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[SlantNGo]

I would check the flop and call if there's a bet &amp; 2 callers, maybe a bet and one caller since this board is so raggedy that we have a great chance of winning should we improve.

On the turn I would call... our hand is almost a monster here because this board is still so raggedy, a raise would scare off callers and perhaps even SB.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you most likely have the best hand but is vulnerable.

[kenstall]

I'm calling here hoping to encourage others to call. K high flop got checked around so either there is a slowplaying set, K with no kicker or no K out there. You're probably ahead at this point with litle fear of drawers.

[Thigh]

This is a joke, right?

[dkernler]

I have to raise the turn here. Sure, I have two pair, but it's not a very strong two pair. I want to get all my money in now before another higher card hits on the river. If everyone folds back to SB who also folds - so be it.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]

Because you most likely have the best hand but is vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true, your hand is vulnerable. However, consider again the pot size.

[joeski19]

Ok now I call so I can raise the river. Probably wrong but it's still a small pot, and I don't want to scare anyone away.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Because you most likely have the best hand but is vulnerable.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true, your hand is vulnerable. However, consider again the pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I win a small pot with this ragged two-pair, it doesn't bother me. Personally I don't see this as a time to keep others in to pump up the pot with this hand.

[dkernler]

[ QUOTE ]
This is true, your hand is vulnerable. However, consider again the pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]
So we can risk going for overcalls here because the pot is small, right? I suppose since the pot is small, it's not the end of the world if we allow someone to look at the river card for cheap. I need to pay attention to pot size more. I'm usually just happy to win this pot with my ragged two pair.

[DBG]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to raise the turn here. Sure, I have two pair, but it's not a very strong two pair. I want to get all my money in now before another higher card hits on the river. If everyone folds back to SB who also folds - so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Greg J]

A lot of people said raise this turn. Intuitively this certainly seems correct. I like the discussion of this, and if someone disagrees with me then I am, as always, willing to listen.

I beleive this is a clear call. "But don't you have to protect your hand against any draws that might be out there?" Two points: 1) The pot is still very small, and building it up should take precedence over hand protection. 2) (Realated to the first) The initial bet by SB already protects this hand mathematically. Any gutshot is making a HUGE error by calling, and even an OESD, needing 4.7:1, is not getting the immediate odds, though still might be smart to call with implied odds. However, there is only one OESD possible (78), so it's likely not even out there. Flush draws are imposssible. In essense, you don't have to actively protect this hand b/c the small pot combined with SB's bet is doing that job for you.

This is why I did the following:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, and this is probably the easiest decision so far.

[davelin]

Good analysis. Don't forget about 54 as well.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
Good analysis. Don't forget about 54 as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops mised 54. Thanks Davelin.

Does this mean I won you over?

[MarkGritter]

I'm convinced by your turn reasoning--- even a large pot equity here is medium-sized relative getting some additional big bets on the turn and river.

I think the river is an easy value bet.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good analysis. Don't forget about 54 as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops mised 54. Thanks Davelin.

Does this mean I won you over?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you've won me over...until someone else comes along /images/graemlins/grin.gif However are some advocating a flop bet here? That would obviously change your turn tactic.

[Greg J]

Some did advocate a turn bet. I don't think it would be a good idea, but obviously any change on flop behavior changes what happend on the turn. DMB (I think) correctly pointed that if UTG bets, and everyone called to Hero it's an easy call. I might checkraise the turn then when I hit 2 pair.

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
so you check, UTG bets, everyone calls, 9 SB to you and you're folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isnt the proper term reverse implied odds or something, I forget and someone will surely correct me. But with a weak kicker hand which is easily beat like this you are basically paying to see the turn card, if you are unimproved you have to probably pay a BB to see the river. 9-1 with a weak hand that has been bet into twice, and is basically paying to see the next card (5 outs) is thin, it is close, but I think it is thin.

I had almost this exact hand yesterday and I was check-fold mode on the flop, it got checked around and I made two pair on the turn and then I bet out and got called down in 2 places (TPWK and a 9 with a better kicked called me down) and won a nice pot.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
I had almost this exact hand yesterday and I was check-fold mode on the flop, it got checked around and I made two pair on the turn and then I bet out and got called down in 2 places (TPWK and a 9 with a better kicked called me down) and won a nice pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you consider a checkraise?

[PuckNPoker]

Nope /images/graemlins/crazy.gif , I was just too happy to see the 4 on the turn, in hindsight check-raising the turn would have made for a bigger pot probably, depends how far those guys wanted to take their hands in the face of a check-raise. Fancy plays get people to fold, just betting out after it gets check around everyone thinks you are trying to steal the pot.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
if you are unimproved you have to probably pay a BB to see the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably fold the turn unimproved at that point, as I'd probably be getting poorer odds at that point - the field would probably thin somewhat - and would have one street less of implied odds to count on.

I agree we are likely paying to see the turn card (meaning we are not likely ahead - maybe we're ahead 25% of the time?), and it depends on the flop action as to whether I do or not. but there are lots of situations where I'd like to. I'd prefer it to just check through though.

[Greg J]

It would certainly be risky. I'm not saying it's always right, but sometimes i think it is.

[flopwell]

I honestly don't see any reason to bet this flop....you have mpck, there are 3 to bet behind you and they all like to call, so I don't see them folding a weak K. What do you gain by betting, unless you are raised?

[flopwell]

raise, fold to a reraise

[SlantNGo]

Should also add that TP has 8 outs to beat you, but again, like the OESD, the pot is so small that it's already "protected".

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
It would certainly be risky. I'm not saying it's always right, but sometimes i think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and I should have at least considered it. Which I didnt.

[Greg J]

I wanted to post this hand for newer players especially b/c I think it illustrates what should guide our decision making processes: the size of the pot!

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Greg is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Greg checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Greg checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks.

This flop is not great. I got a piece of it, but since the pot is tiny it's not worth taking a risk betting out. If someone bets I likely have 5 outs at most. I have no real draw. I check intending to fold, unless I check, UTG bets, and 2 players call and I calose the betting. In that case I would be getting the odds to call. The chances of a set are more than offset by implied odds I get when I hit and there is no set.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Greg calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

Here is where things got a bit trickier. I likley have the best hand. So raise right? I have to protect this monster pot! Not really. B/c the pot is so small, the double sized bet from SB is doing all the protecting I need here. Raising here is like wearing two condoms. You are certainly very protected, but you probably won't get anything out of it.

River: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Greg bets</font>, CO calls, SB folds.

This is a super super super easy value bet.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Results:
Greg has 9h 6c (two pair, nines and sixes).
CO has 6s Ac (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: Greg wins 7.50 BB. </font>

Moral of the story: the size of the pot, and the ratio of pot size to bet size, are what guides your decisions.

[tytygoodnuts]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people said raise this turn. Intuitively this certainly seems correct. I like the discussion of this, and if someone disagrees with me then I am, as always, willing to listen.

I beleive this is a clear call. "But don't you have to protect your hand against any draws that might be out there?" Two points: 1) The pot is still very small, and building it up should take precedence over hand protection. 2) (Realated to the first) The initial bet by SB already protects this hand mathematically. Any gutshot is making a HUGE error by calling, and even an OESD, needing 4.7:1, is not getting the immediate odds, though still might be smart to call with implied odds. However, there is only one OESD possible (78), so it's likely not even out there. Flush draws are imposssible. In essense, you don't have to actively protect this hand b/c the small pot combined with SB's bet is doing that job for you.

This is why I did the following:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, and this is probably the easiest decision so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

On average how much are you really going to build the pot by just calling though? It got checked through on the flop so no one can really like their hand that much. I would raise because it will clearly protect your hand, instead of just probably protecting your somewhat vunerable hand. Plus, on average, slowplaying isn't going to have that great of an effect anyway.

EDIT: fixed some grammar errors.

[Greg J]

My initial read of the other players was they leaned towards calling a lot. As far as hand protection goes, SB did that for me already. Small pots don't need as many bets to protect them.

[Shillx]

Yeah I like the way this hand was played. The only hand that we really want to raise the turn against is 87 or 54. In this case (assuming the turn bettor calls) he would be getting 13:4 on his money and would thus be making a bad call (so it is possible to fold out OESD's /images/graemlins/tongue.gif). Granted an OESD probably wouldn't fold in this spot for 2 bets, but we would be making lots of $$$ on his call. Ni han.

The straight would need to make (4*4.7 - 13) BB worth of implied odds on the river to make this call. No way he is getting 5.8 BB on the river from everyone when he hits.

Brad

[Isura]

Good post. Bump for anyone that missed it.

[ QUOTE ]
Raising here is like wearing two condoms. You are certainly very protected, but you probably won't get anything out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice.

[shadow29]

This is a good good post, Greg. I'm sorry I missed the discussion.

Raising the turn sucks bad here.

Just thought I'd throw my hat into the ring. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Thigh]

I agree, this was a great post. Which is why I posted another question about it. It taught me a lot about being a little more subtle and giving more thought to pot odds in a small pot.