To all you 2/4 players - how many hands of 2/4 have you played, and...

[DMBFan23]

why aren't you playing 3/6?

reasons might include, but aren't limited to

1) bankroll
2) confidence
3) fish factor - 2/4 is fun
4) still want to learn some lessons 2/4 has to teach - blind play, marginal hands out of position, aggression with more marginal hands
5) want to experience a downswing so it hurts less at 3/6
6) I'm a huge flaming wuss.

I've played about 5K hands of 2/4, and I'm thinking about moving up to 3/6 after another 5K. I'm running ok, not great, not bad. I just want to get a handle on whether or not I should stick around past 10K - I stayed around 1/2 for a long time and it helped my game fo sho. I saw about 20 posts in the micro forum about the differences between .5/1 and 1/2 and 2/4, but not much is mentioned about 3/6 except "play tighter in the small blind." so really I'm just hoping to start some discussion here.

[krishanleong]

1) bankroll - I have a 2000BB bankroll for 3/6
2) confidence - Somewhat. I believe 3/6 is tougher.
3) fish factor - 2/4 is fun - No
4) still want to learn some lessons 2/4 has to teach - blind play, marginal hands out of position, aggression with more marginal hands - I don't think you can learn some of these things at 2/4.
5) want to experience a downswing so it hurts less at 3/6 - Couldn't care less.
6) I'm a huge flaming wuss. - Nope

7) I think in terms of money 2/4 is more profitable than 3/6. I bought a house and withdrew a lot of money to pay for it without paying taxes. I was expecting to pay ~8K in taxes. Because of this I've pretty much been trying to make money and I think 2/4 is better for than than 3/6.

Krishan

[chief444]

About 16k.

I'm a huge flaming wuss.

Seriously, I just decided to get 25k at least at 2/4 before moving up. I've played a some 3/6. I don't think the difference is huge. At least not from what I've seen. I think most people who can win at 2/4 can also win at 3/6. But that's the biggest reason for me. Bankroll and confidence are fine. I just decided arbitrarily to get 25k, see how the results are, and then move up. When I do move up I'll probably still play some of both.

[QTip]

Kevin:

I'm already migrating into 3/6 and have dabbled a bit into 5/10 (although I've been at these limits before I wiped out my BR 5 months ago..and have always played close to weak/tight at 5/10 because they numbers get really big for me no matter the size of my BR), and I've only logged 7K hands at 2/4. Honestly, I don't see why not. If you can still play correctly (ie not afraid to raise and so forth because of the size of the bet eating into your BR), then go at it. I remember you saying that you like to play 10K at one level before moving up...but I don't know why you made that rule. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of difference in the players.

That's my opinion, FWIW.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
but I don't know why you made that rule

[/ QUOTE ]

me neither. it's a nice pretty number.

I even once demanded that I win 300 BB at my limit before moving up, but now Feeney has me questioning that.

[krishanleong]

ASF at 2/4 is ~35%.
ASF at 3/6 is ~32%. (this is from memory and might be wrong)

Every night someone at 2/4 makes a totally inappropriate move on the river and I take their money. The thing is, it's not a 1 (or 2 if they CR) BB error, it's putting money in all the way to the river as a huge dog. This just doesn't happen at 3/6.

Bison who lived off these games played 2/4 at certain times of the day/week because the 3/6 games were not as profitable.

Krishan

[GrunchCan]

About 10K.

#3 & #4.

I feel I'm much better than many of my 2/4 opponents, but there are still many threads that come up here where I'm really unsure of my action. While I learn these things I can make a very good earn playing at 2/4.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe 3/6 is tougher

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a huge stickler for table selection. I almost always check out every table at PP several times. I've done this at both levels (2/4 and 3/6) and there are always beautiful talbes at both levels. I think it just boils down to table selection. I think the only difference is that you have people willing to risk higher stakes.

I have a friend who has a lot of money and absolutely sucks (I mean that in the strongest sense of the word) at poker but loves to gamble. He has played 3/6 and higher (up to 10/20 a couple of weekends ago). He doesn't play lower than that becuase he doesn't take an $8 raise seriously he told me. I'm just relaying the story to say that there are plenty of poor players at both of these levels...just have to be selective.

[QTip]

yeah...I remember seeing that in one of your posts as well. I've only beaten 2/4 for about 1BB/100, but I've been whoring bonuses like a pro and my BR is plenty big for 3/6 and 5/10, so I see no reason to stay put.

[BigEndian]

No reason to not play 3/6, you'll want to learn the lessons presented there sooner or later. And if you have the bankroll for it, why not sooner?

Try this, take your 1800-2400 to the 3/6 table and play. If you drop down to 1000-1600, step back down to 2/4. Do this until you feel like you've managed the swings.

And be prepared to sit at tables where 50% of the players are 10-15/5-10 (mostly 3+ MTers), and 4 players range between 65/2 and 40/15. Also keep in mind that later street play is not at all dependant on the PF numbers - this is highlighted in 3/6.

- Jim

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
No reason to not play 3/6, you'll want to learn the lessons presented there sooner or later. And if you have the bankroll for it, why not sooner?

Try this, take your 1800-2400 to the 3/6 table and play. If you drop down to 1000-1600, step back down to 2/4. Do this until you feel like you've managed the swings.

And be prepared to sit at tables where 50% of the players are 10-15/5-10 (mostly 3+ MTers), and 4 players range between 65/2 and 40/15. Also keep in mind that later street play is not at all dependant on the PF numbers - this is highlighted in 3/6.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

stop trying to get more fish in your game. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

seriously, good post.

[Entity]

There's no real reason to be playing 2/4 over $3/6, unless you simply feel more comfortable, and I think that's a fine reason (logic aside, it's easier to play better where you feel comfortable). $3/6 is harder but from what I've seen, not by a lot. It's basically tighter and more boring than $2/4.

Personally, I'm happy with $3/6 shorthanded games right now. Seems to be very good money there. I should probably get a few K hands in at the Party $3/6 tables, but I get soooooooo bored.

Rob

[PotatoStew]

I've played about 12k hands of 2/4 so far. I plan on playing 20k before I move up, for a few reasons:

1. My win-rate is pretty high -- about 4BB/100 -- and I've heard this is unsustainable. My VP$IP is also a bit high -- about 21-22% -- even though I feel like I play pretty tight. These two facts together make me wonder if I've just had a long run of good cards so far, so I'd like to have a slightly larger sample size to make sure I really am comfortably beating this level.

2. I know I have a lot of leaks, and make some bone-headed plays a little too often, so I'd like to work on my game a little more before moving up.

3. I have enough bankroll for 3/6, but I'd like to cash out some money over the next few months. I figure by staying at 2/4, I can cash out most of my winnings while playing the next 10k hands, and still have enough roll for 3/6 at that point.

I rushed my jump to 2/4 anyway ... took a shot when I only had about 175BB, and was successful. So I figure I should spend some extra time here and iron out the kinks. I am looking forward to moving up in a few months though.

[Pocket Trips]

I don't think there is much of a difference b/t 2/4 or 3/6 in online play... in a B&M 3/6 usually has a few less people that play ANY two cards so it is easier to get a read on them.

[Entity]

One of the reasons I actually hate $3/6 from the play I've had is I really don't like a 1/3 blind structure. I like more money in the pots more often, and that's discouraged by $3/6's blind structure.

Rob

[krishanleong]

Damn, seems like I'm too risk averse or something. Oh and I've played over 150K 2/4 hands. 30K 3/6 hands.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Damn, seems like I'm too risk averse or something. Oh and I've played over 150K 2/4 hands. 30K 3/6 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, that's a lot of $2/4.

I've played a few thousand of $2/4 and fewer $3/6. Will probably find myself playing more $3/6 in the near future.

Rob

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the reasons I actually hate $3/6 from the play I've had is I really don't like a 1/3 blind structure. I like more money in the pots more often, and that's discouraged by $3/6's blind structure.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

The flip side is, you get more medium-sized pots on 3/6 in blind steal situations, which would more often be small pots on 2/4. It was hard to adjust to at first, but once you get used to it there are pretty obvious advantages & disadvantages to the 1:3 blinds.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
The flip side is, you get more medium-sized pots on 3/6 in blind steal situations

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that? With a 1/3 structure, there's less dead money in the pot to begin with, and the SB is less likely to defend. Why is the likelihood of a medium-sized pot inreased?

Rob

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
why aren't you playing 3/6?

reasons might include, but aren't limited to

1) bankroll
2) confidence
3) fish factor - 2/4 is fun
4) still want to learn some lessons 2/4 has to teach - blind play, marginal hands out of position, aggression with more marginal hands
5) want to experience a downswing so it hurts less at 3/6
6) I'm a huge flaming wuss.

I've played about 5K hands of 2/4, and I'm thinking about moving up to 3/6 after another 5K. I'm running ok, not great, not bad. I just want to get a handle on whether or not I should stick around past 10K - I stayed around 1/2 for a long time and it helped my game fo sho. I saw about 20 posts in the micro forum about the differences between .5/1 and 1/2 and 2/4, but not much is mentioned about 3/6 except "play tighter in the small blind." so really I'm just hoping to start some discussion here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would use caution, but then again I tend to be quite conservative. I just made the jump to 3/6. I had around 30K hands at 2/4 at 2.75bb/100. In my short time at 3/6(2K) hands, I have taken some hideous beats (which can make one shakey), and it seems that the players are much more aggressive postflop. (Lots of turn c/r's into the preflop raiser, etc). It has felt like players are constantly making moves on me. My sample size is too small, as I may just be running into better hands. Either way, at this point I am sensing a difference in the play at 3/6.

In your case, 5K hands is not much at all to base anything on. All it takes is a few bad suckouts to skew your #'s in either direction. If you have the bankroll, take a shot. But if you are worried about losing, you won't be able to play your "A" game.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is that? With a 1/3 structure, there's less dead money in the pot to begin with, and the SB is less likely to defend. Why is the likelihood of a medium-sized pot inreased?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll see a lot more MP/LP open-raises on 3/6 than on 2/4, and there are a lot more players on 3/6 who recognize a steal attempt when they see one, and will punish it with a pretty wide range of hands. So you end up with a fair number of hands where it's folded to CO who open-raises, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, CO calls....etc.

At least in my experience, on 2/4 CO would be more likely to open-limp with a mediocre holding like K9s, and Button more likely to limp behind with his A9s or 44.

[QTip]

This is a quote from "EV and other Stuff" from the 2+2 magazine. I like what it has to say.

"It is much better to play in a smaller game and play at your peak earn than to play higher at less than optimum. This way you get to build up the money needed to play higher stakes without the risk of losing and not being sure you can beat that game. Sure, some times there will be games that are so good it may be worth taking a shot at. Playing ABC poker, and grinding out what you can. But overall, building up your bankroll by playing at your best in the games that give you the highest expectation for what you can afford will give you the most money in the long run. And, of course, the long run is where it is at. "

[detruncate]

65,603 and counting. Preparing for a move. Still lots to learn at 2/4, but then again I felt the same way after 90,000 or so .5/1 hands.

I'm very consevative with my roll out of necessity and temperment, but I'm now comfortably over-rolled for 3/6 and plan to make the move within another 20,000 hands or so (beginning of April ish).

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is that? With a 1/3 structure, there's less dead money in the pot to begin with, and the SB is less likely to defend. Why is the likelihood of a medium-sized pot inreased?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll see a lot more MP/LP open-raises on 3/6 than on 2/4, and there are a lot more players on 3/6 who recognize a steal attempt when they see one, and will punish it with a pretty wide range of hands. So you end up with a fair number of hands where it's folded to CO who open-raises, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, CO calls....etc.

At least in my experience, on 2/4 CO would be more likely to open-limp with a mediocre holding like K9s, and Button more likely to limp behind with his A9s or 44.

[/ QUOTE ]

That has nothing to do with the blind structure, though. I thought you were saying the blind structure has something to do with the size of the pots when it comes down to stealing situations.

Rob

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
That has nothing to do with the blind structure, though. I thought you were saying the blind structure has something to do with the size of the pots when it comes down to stealing situations.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it does have something to do with the blind structure, for exactly the reason that you already brought up--the SB is less likely to defend having to put $5 into the pot to protect his $1. This makes the steal attempt more attractive from the get-go (and makes the resteal 3-bet more attractive because Button doesn't want BB throwing in $3 to win $10).

[davelin]

I've played about 35K hands of 2/4, only for the last 15K hands have I've been happy with my results and level of play. My reasons for not moving up are #2, #3, #4, and #6. But I have started data-mining 3/6 for the eventual move up.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
No reason to not play 3/6, you'll want to learn the lessons presented there sooner or later. And if you have the bankroll for it, why not sooner?

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking only for myself, I feel that I should learn SH play at the 1/2 6m tables before moving to 3/6.

[rewt75]

I'm at about 20Kish hands of 2/4 and haven't yet figured out if I'm just not very good or if I'm running bad. I'm beating it for around 1.5BB and have been basically break even for the last 6-7K hands. While it's still more profitable than a 4BB winrate at .5/1, it's more stressful and I get outplayed more often. I have more than enough money to play 3/6, but with a 1.5BB winrate at 2/4 I'm not even considering a move to 3/6. Maybe 15/30 though.

[QTip]

Why?

[QTip]

I don't know why you're thinking 1.5BB/100 is bad. I think you can be proud of this #. You're a winning player.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No reason to not play 3/6, you'll want to learn the lessons presented there sooner or later. And if you have the bankroll for it, why not sooner?

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking only for myself, I feel that I should learn SH play at the 1/2 6m tables before moving to 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been thinking the same thing. Seems like I lose most of my 'mistake money' in ill-conceived HU play.

[Munga30]

I have about 17K hands at 2-4 with good results. I still wonder whether I'm just running well. On the plus side, I have spent and continue to spend a lot of time here (and elsewhere) reading, thinking, and occasionally posting. So I just made what some might consider a slightly underrolled move to 3/6 with a little more than 250 BB in tow. If I fall to 180 (and I'm on my way there so far), I'll drop back down.

[goodguy_1]

I've played about 155K hands in $2-4 LHE Full and 11OK $3-6 LHE Full hands.I've also played a ton of 6MAX/5MAX/ in both games.I'm ready now to move up.I want to play $15-30 LHE but I need to take out the $5-10 6MAX games first and aclimate to even higher swinginess and maintain my edge.I make more in $100 NLHE 6MAX's then I do at $3-6 LHE Full but I think moving towards $15-30 Full is the best long-term move so I'm grinding LHE again.

$3-6 LHE is not at all like $2-4.It is much tougher game seriously.Proof of that is many players choose not to play $3-6 because they make more in $2-4.People that say the 2 games are comparable are wrong.$3-6 is a game where you need solid blind play,solid short-handed play and solid hand-reading skills.In $2-4 the players are so poor you can get away with being mediocre at those 3 skills and still make 1.00-2.00 bb/100 ..at $3-6 you will break even or lose if you havent worked on these parts of youre game.

All the games at Party over last 6 months have gotten progressively tighter in general.You used to be able to find 4-7 $2-4 games w/$40+ pot averages now these game are hard to find and when you do find them they dont sustain action often...anyway even with less easy games you should be able to make 2.00 bb/100-3.50 bb/100 at this limit after a very large sample

My first 2 attempts I failed moving up to $3-6 last year.My first 500 hours were a horror show I ran really really poorly but I also had work to do on my game.I was very depressed about it also. /images/graemlins/frown.gif I now have around 1800 hours/~110K hands.Making the jump and staying there is well worth it because it will allow you to really start to make serious money and you can move up to better games.Both Party's $2-4 and $15-30 are better games then $3-6 or $5-10 Full.$5-10 by far the tightest of the small/mid games.Every single player in $5-10 Full seems to be playing for rakeback.The whole table is 17-20VIP/10PFR/2.50TA on ave.

I made almost 3.23 bb/100 at $2-4.My $3-6 earn was horrid for my first 30K hands then took off to the upside.My $3-6 earn is ~2.85 bb/100 currently.$3-6 is good game because it introduces you to a swingier game..yes dollar amounts arent huge ~$300/$400 or so but as you play more you'll adapt to the swings and play better.I'm a very aggressive player but ironicly never been big on huge intra-session swings.This is a major deficiency for any serious player -this fear of swings.Read Ray Zee's excellent post in this month's 2+2 Magazine..in it he says the best players are uneffected by large swings and this is so true.IF you want to play better,higher you must filter out the monetary value of your swings and just think of them as betting units.Matter of fact that whole Ray Zee article was very simplistic but to me it's the best 2+2 Magazine article I've read.

IF you need to move up slowly as I have so be it- know yourself.Beat a limit steadily on a large sample of hours/hands ie 100K hands before you move up.Some great young players will whip right thru limits..they are in general not the norm but there are many out there..god bless em.
Me I'm very methodical but it's put me in good shape.I've beat every level I've played at Party at PLO,NLHE and LHE Full/6MAX and now have a solid footing to move higher and make some really serious money-or at least as long as these online games stay good /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The important thing to realize is that as you move up and experince higher dollar swings there are core components of your game that you must improve on to profit at this new higher level.The better players quickly figure out what these skills are and fix whatver defiency they may have.As you move up you have to be more adaptive and recognize where the skill-gap is between you and the field.
If you arent yet ready to adapt and open up your mind to how your game may be leaky head back to limits you can beat consistently.IF you stay at the higher limit and dont work on your game your variance will be very high and playing will be very painfull.

sorry for being so long-winded this is a topic that hits close to home for me.

[QTip]

Thanks for the long-winded post....things for me to consider.

I'll tell you what I sometimes think on this.

I'm always in a terrible game (good thing for me terrible). However, sometimes I think this hinders my development. Because I only play with horrible players. The 3/6 games I've been in can be played just like the .50/1 games I've played.

[DMBFan23]

great food for thought. certainly a lot of things to think about here. I'll probably re-evaluate at 10K, and see if I feel comfortable enough to mix 3/6 in on a part time basis.

[Lurker4]

good topic. I have about 20K hands at 2/4, and after playing 1/2 6m for a bit will be taking a shot at 3/6. I haven't moved up yet mostly b/c of reason 2 and maybe a bit b/c of 6. My winrate isn't what I think I am capable of at 2/4 (I've gone through two 100ish BB downswings through first 20K hands) and I still have sessions where I drop 40-50BBs and start doubting whether I can beat the game. Part of it is probably the money as coming from 1/2, the same swings feel bigger since the money is twice as much. I think I am capable of beating 3/6 though, so I will be playing some soon while making my main game 2/4.

[pyroponic]

I basically skipped $2/4 (played like 200k hands of 1/2), and am 7-8 tabling $3/6 now.

Things to look for:

1. Players are much tigher, and more aggressive

2. 30+ VPIP tables are not plentiful unless it's a weekened night, I consider a VPIP table of at least 25 to be fairly juicy, most 1/2 and 2/4 players would probably think otherwise

3. HIgher ratio of TAGs and rocks to fish/maniacs, although I find the rocks pretty easy to beat

4. Swings (especially when playing 6+ tables) can be brutal and takes aome getting used to, you need to still play at the top of your game after losing $500-$1000

5. Don't overplay overcards and turn check-raises and raises should be respected more

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do I think I need to work on my SH game?

2 reasons, I guess. First & foremost, my SH game sucks. Its really bad. Second, I think it would indirectly help my ring game by making me better with standard lines, hand reading, etc.

[housenuts]

to me it's all about bankroll. my bankroll allows me to play 3/6 so that's what i'm going to play. playing 2/4 just doesn't seem exciting and sometimes i find myself calling raises or making otherwise wrong plays because it's only $2 or $4.

as for my win rate:

2/4 & 2/4 KILL games - 7,887 hands - 2.17BB/100
3/6 & 3/6 KILL games - 7,085 hands - 0.96BB/100

and i'll add 5/10 just for fun - 1,218 hands - (-0.28BB)/100

i really liked the kill games at UB. alot of the time they would have 45% table VP$IP. and it was only once in a while that you'd be playing at double the stakes. which also added some excitement to the daily grind.

so it looks like 2/4 is more profitable for me. that's the first time i've compared. hmm.. more than double the BB/100
i wonder if that's statistically significant, i'd like a bigger sample size but i think i will play some more 2/4

maybe 2 tables of 2/4 and 2 tables of 3/6. does anyone recommend playing 2 different limits at once?

[BigEndian]

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone recommend playing 2 different limits at once?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not recommend it between 2/4 and 3/6. The blind structure is different and the above mentioned factors make it a bad idea imo when MTing more than 2 tables (if you can't pay attention to specifics when only playing 2-tables, there are other problems).

- Jim

[SomethingClever]

I played around 20k of 2/4 then moved *down* to 1/2 6-max.

I was running bad and I wasn't good at HU situations after the flop, so I thought some shorthanded would be good for me.

I think I've learned a lot so far.... about 20k hands into the 1/2 6-max.

[housenuts]

what is your BB/100 at 1/2 6-max?

[Moozh]

A little over 50,000 at 2/4 now, most of that over the past 2 months. At first I was waiting around to hit a big downswing that I knew would come. That's long past now and I'm still at 2/4.

There are a few reasons for this. First of all is probably confidence. I feel very comfortable playing 2/4 on autopilot. I don't have that feeling at 3/6 (and there's no reason I should). Second, I have taken a shot at it and am down $250 after 4,000 hands. A small amount, but still disappointing. Finally, I am relying on my winnings for income more than most, and I don't have the confidence that it would be more profitable for me at 3/6 than at 2/4 at the moment.

But man do I want to move up /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Emmitt2222]

Over the two levels of .5/1 and 1/2 6max I have played with poker tracker I have relatively small sample sizes but I have either never run well or I am just a sucky player. Now that I am at 2/4 I still don't have a satisfactory winrate so I have decided to stay until I can really convince myself that I do have a decent amount of skill at this game. I will most likely end up playing about 25k hands at 2/4 and then move to 3/6 in a few months as my summer job. This thread made me feel like maybe I should not waste my time with some much at 2/4, but then I looked at my winrate again and snapped back to the reality of me sucking.