overcards in EP

[tiltaholic]

I feel I played this hand poorly.
Villian is a non-descript loose passive typical type (40/4 preflop). I am reminded of this hand by Aaron W.'s post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1878563&page=2&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) on reading aggression from typical loose passive players.

I -think- the flop bet is good. But I don't know. I always seem to get my missing-the-flop-overcards in EP these days...too many opponents to bet?
What's the turn plan?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero needs a plan.

[flopwell]

c/r?

[GrunchCan]

I like the flop bet with the AQ and the BDNFD. Any more opponents, and different cards or board and I prb check.

CR the turn.

[antidan444]

I'd bet out the turn. Even though he's passive, there are still some top pair hands I think he'd raise on the flop that you have beat now.

If he were to raise me, I'd call and check-call the river.

EDIT: I actually like the c/r line better come to think of it, if you can confidently fold to a 3-bet which it sounds like you could.

[DBG]

Definitely c/r.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: I actually like the c/r line better come to think of it, if you can confidently fold to a 3-bet which it sounds like you could.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure you can getting 11.25:1. We're like behind, but if we are to J9 we have 8 outs. We'll draw dead to a set pretty often which might make the fold possible, but why not bet and call down a raise as it costs the same ammount? This way we have a chance to outdraw him. And we won't risk him checking the turn through which is pretty likey if he holds a J.

[TwoShedsJackson]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet out the turn. Even though he's passive, there are still some top pair hands I think he'd raise on the flop that you have beat now.

If he were to raise me, I'd call and check-call the river.



[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line better.

[jskills]

I got for the C/R on the turn and even if I get 3-bet I call down the river, since you just never know with LP types.

Yes, I'd likely lose too.

[Bodhi]

Just curious. I would bet the turn; if he checks it's a small disaster.

[joeski19]

I'd bet out and call any raise. Then bet/call or check/call depending on the river card. What's he got KTo ? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[tiltaholic]

yeah. so, usually i wouldn't post results so quickly, but I am more embarassed about my play than usual. i suck at poker. general consensus is either to check raise the turn or lead and call a raise. through some method of non-thinking i chose clearly the worst option and check called.
my thinking was thus: "loose passive opponent wouldn't raise the flop w/o a hand better than top pair" so, i actually put him on J9 at the time (dumb -seeing monsters at 2/4?). then came the queen, and i think "he'll check a pair of jacks, and bet if he can beat top pair (now queens)." so i check. he bets. instead of now following through with my read (misguided as it may have been) i check-call the turn, which is clearly the worst line possible, imo. then i check called again?? on a river blank. villian has Q9. i suck at poker and am somehow really intimidated by 2/4 into played my Z game. ah well, another -20bb session at 2/4.

[tmoore44]

I like betting the turn. For all I know he could be on a flush draw and trying to get a free card. If you bet out the turn and he raises again I think it's safe to assume he's got 2 pair given his normally passive post flop play. This would only cost you 1 bet on the turn.

The problem with a c/r is that if he's on a flush draw or scared you might have the Q he's going to check right behind you if he only paired J. If he does have 2 pair, he'll re-raise which puts you in crying call mode hoping to spike an A or Q and you've got 3 bets in the pot on the turn if you call his re-raise.

[Jingleheimer]

Look at his play, he played it well. With 2nd pair and an overcard on the flop, he was getting good odds from the pot to call your bet, but would give the button 10.5:1 to call, and protected his hand by raising, giving him 11.5:2. This is almost Miller's example with Q7.

Although he turned 2 pair against you, you'd have to think he'd play K9 and A9 the same way. What if he had had those hands? He might have continued to bet after your check, or he may have checked through. I would bet here, but I think a CR is better depending on how aggro your opponent is.

But this hand is a nice illustration that if you get raised on the flop it doesn't necessarily mean TPTK, two pair, or a set. If he acts soon after you, he could be protecting his hand against a draw.

J