TPFAP question - the gap in NL

[Mackie]

Others who have read (or wrote) TPFAP, I want to see if I understand this correctly. Assume you are in the middle stages of a NLHE tourney, noone at your table is short stacked. You are in early position with JJ or QQ. Assuming the gap concept applies, you would raise, say 2x the pot. But there is a contradictory concept also mentioned in the book, best stated IMHO in the section about not turning good hands into 72. Question: Is there, in fact, a conflict here? Does the gap concept not apply in no limit, or does the advice about good but not great hands not apply to pre-flop opening raises? Or if both concepts still apply, what do you base your action decision on?

You have to be careful with the second concept. In the example given in the book, you are last to act in the BB. You can guarantee a free flop by checking. Plus, if you do raise, you are unlikely to see a flop at all. You will either get reraised (and pass unless you have a monster) or everyone will fold. So, if your hand isn't good enough to stand a reraise, then it makes no difference whether your hand is quite good or trash. In your more normal case, you are liable to get called, or you might stand a reraise from some opponents (certainly with QQ) so your hand value is important.

In general, the gap concept applies to varying degrees in NL, depending on the stack sizes. If stacks are big enough to limp in or even call a raise for only a few % of your stack, you can call with a lot of hands that can hit big (most obviously a pair). When blinds go up and implied odds go down then the gap concept applies a lot more.

This is a good example of a book concept being dangerous and even counter-productive unless / until you understand it fully.

Andy.

[Mackie]

I take it then you believe the concept of raising with good but not great hands in NL does not apply to pre-flop opening raises in tournies? Allow me to make my example more concrete - 2 fold to you, you have JJ, blinds are 100-200 and everyone behind you has a stack between 3000 and 5000, you have 4400. The BB is a novice, the SB is a solid player, the button is a rock, the other players are unknown to you. I would make it 1000 to go. Is my play ok, if not, why not?

[Gio]

I am from the school that my opening raise is always going to be 3x or 4x the BB whether I am holding AK, AA or any other combination during the non-ante period of a tournament. Reason: it's difficult to put me on a hand throughout the tournament. When antes become part of the pot, my opening raise get revised to a pot raise (BTW, many times that equals out to 3x to 4x BB). Of course, if the raise is near the 40% of my stack then that becomes an all-in or fold decision.

Thus, under those guidelines, I would have to disagree with your opening raise for the following.

1. For most players, a big overbet from early and early MP advertises weakness.. (i.e. I really don't want a call) and inmedietly put you on a pp not AA, KK and most likely a middle pair of JJ or TT . If I have two overcards and a strong chip position, I'll have a couple of choices. Call and see what the flop brings or if I think your are tight weak player and you pegged me as solid..reraise you.

2. The what do you do if a K or A flops? are you going to go all-in on the flop and semi-bluff? Check? or make a weak bet to try to get me off my hand? If I hit, I'll be able to put you on a tough decision for all of your chips where most of the time, you'll be behind.

So, IMHO, overbets for opening raises for the most part can only bring grief to most players when called by solid players with better position as you are giving away too much information with your bet.

Rgds,

Gio

[Mackie]

I don't think 1k is that big of an overbet. A pot sized raise would be 700. Please note noone behind me has a strong chip position. Anyone behind me wishing to flat call would cost them between 20% and 33% of their stack, enough that they should either re-raise or muck. For your second question, if someone does flat call and a A or K flops, I am clearly done.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I also dislike the overbet. In NL, I steal quite a bit. Now, that doesn't mean I have a trash hand, but that I have a hand where I am perfectly content if they all fold now and give me the blinds. I say this because my EV if they call/reraise is lower than my EV if they all fold (or, the increase in EV is very small, so I'd rather take the path of lower volatility).

Since there are so many pots where I want to win it now, and I want to do so with the least risk possible, I want to be able to make those steals for the smallest possible raise. Risking T1000 to win T300 is a poor proposition. If that were the only opening bet available, I would raise first-in a lot less often. T600 is usually enough to get the job done, and sometimes less will do. If so, then raise less. Even if this means increasing the risk of getting a caller vs. your decent hands like JJ.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Your first sentence would make a lot more sense if it said "the concept of NOT raising with good but not great hands in NL does not apply to pf opening raises". Is that what you meant ? If it isn't I'm confused because you seem to have inverted what I said, or at least meant.

Andy.

[Mackie]

The concept of not raising with good but not great hands in NL - seems to run contrary to the gap concept so I don't think it applies to pre-flop opening raises in tournies (and maybe side games too?). Seems like that's the general idea, although opinions here so far are that my opening raise is a little too big for the example I gave.