Top set against flop raise [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

PokerBob

03-08-2005, 09:22 AM

No read on villain.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 3-bets, 4 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, Hero ?????

smooth call and c/r the turn, or 3-bet that mofo?

Chris Daddy Cool

03-08-2005, 09:24 AM

Cap and lead.

jt1

03-08-2005, 09:26 AM

agreed, your up against KK or AA. if he only calls the turn, you can check raise the river.

Super Pro

03-08-2005, 09:32 AM

wrong, calling and then checkraising the turn is clearly better by a far margin. smoothcall-checkraise line wins you an extra .5bb. little decisions like these may not seem like such a big deal, but it adds up.

jt1

03-08-2005, 09:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
wrong, calling and then checkraising the turn is clearly better by a far margin. smoothcall-checkraise line wins you an extra .5bb. little decisions like these may not seem like such a big deal, but it adds up.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not considering all the factors, man. A cap does not indicate to villian that Hero has a set. Some villians will raise the turn. A very small % of the time, villian will have been raising for the free card. You can always check raise the river.

A turn check raise wins less.

Fnord

03-08-2005, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
wrong, calling and then checkraising the turn is clearly better by a far margin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. He might check behind or recognise your "I have a monster" line and laydown. Also, by leading the turn you give him a chance to pop it again setting up a 3-bet on an expensive street.

The call and c/r line does have merit depending on your opponent, but it's hard to go too wrong playing your hand straight up.

jason_t

03-08-2005, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
wrong, calling and then checkraising the turn is clearly better by a far margin. smoothcall-checkraise line wins you an extra .5bb. little decisions like these may not seem like such a big deal, but it adds up.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not as black/white as you paint it. What if hero smoothcalls and goes for a check/raise and villian checks behind with AK? Or AA/KK and just wants a cheap showdown realizing you have a monster?

What if villian is hyper and hero caps the flop and leads the turn and villian raises again? Hero gets to 3-bet!

It's not black/white. It's villian dependent. But I would almost never give villian the chance to take a free one. Most of the time it is best to just jam and forget about the FPS.

I think CDC's line is best.

PokerBob

03-08-2005, 09:40 AM

Chris Daddy Cool

03-08-2005, 09:40 AM

what about the times he takes a free card with AKs? what about the times you'll be able to bet-3-bet the turn if he raises the turn with AA or KK? the cost of capping and leading does NOT equate to .5bb. if my line is wrong its only by a fraction of .5bb at WORST.

Super Pro

03-08-2005, 09:45 AM

thats ridiculous. how many of these non-thinking fish would actually 3-bet for a free card? like almost none. he will bet the turn almost always, and you overestimate the times you will be able to bet-3-bet anyways. AA-JJ will freeze up here and not raise you most of the time.

Super Pro

03-08-2005, 09:45 AM

why would he check behind the turn?

PokerBob

03-08-2005, 09:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
how many of these non-thinking fish would actually 3-bet for a free card?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only non-thinking fish at this table was PBob. /images/graemlins/blush.gif You are grossly underestimating the average 3/6 player.

PokerBob

03-08-2005, 09:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why would he check behind the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
For a free card.

Super Pro

03-08-2005, 09:49 AM

almost no regular 3/6 player will 3-bet the flop and take a free card. they're just not that smart.

jason_t

03-08-2005, 09:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
thats ridiculous. how many of these non-thinking fish would actually 3-bet for a free card? like almost none.

[/ QUOTE ]

You underestimate your villian's far too much.

[ QUOTE ]
AA-JJ will freeze up here and not raise you most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are non-thinking, you're wrong. Do you see why?

PokerBob

03-08-2005, 09:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
agreed, your up against KK or AA. if he only calls the turn, you can check raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you be so sure? There are a slew of hands that villain would raise the flop with and then check behind with on the turn.

PokerBob

03-08-2005, 09:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
almost no regular 3/6 player will 3-bet the flop and take a free card. they're just not that smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not 3-bet, raise. Reread the action. Take a deep breath.

Super Pro

03-08-2005, 09:53 AM

no i don't see why. most fish are too passive and scared to raise AA-JJ on the turn after a stop n go.

Super Pro

03-08-2005, 09:54 AM

ahah whoops i'm sorry. i totally misread the hand. ignore everything i said. fish raise the flop all the time with draws. but what i said about 3-betting is still correct.

EDIT TO ADD: however i still agree with checkrraising the turn because AKs or AQs only account for 2 of the possible flush draw hands that would play this way. they are far more likely to bet than check.

jt1

03-08-2005, 09:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How can you be so sure? There are a slew of hands that villain would raise the flop with and then check behind with on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get your point. I'm not sure if you understand mine. I said cap and lead the turn. You can check raise the river because if villan has overpair, he'll bet, but if he was going for a free card, he'll fold anyway - and your possibly inducing a bluff.

jason_t

03-08-2005, 09:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]

no i don't see why. most fish are too passive and scared to raise AA-JJ on the turn after a stop n go.

[/ QUOTE ]

You paint everything as black/white, don't make and use player reads and don't think about things, right?

jt1

03-08-2005, 10:00 AM

super pro is right in one point and one point only. I only rarely encounter a free card move, seriously. Most, but not all, players who raise draws will bet it again on the turn. However, super - there are many players who will raise you again on the turn.

PokerBob

03-08-2005, 10:10 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 3-bets, 4 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

bigmac366

03-08-2005, 11:18 AM

thats interesting, i wonder what he had. i think AK or AQ wouldve tried to hit their gutshot/overs not knowing their overs werent good. oh well.

rmarotti

03-08-2005, 12:02 PM

IDEA: (Since you've pulled this garbage in every thread you've been in so far.) Read each initial post four times. Print it out, copy it by hand to paper (twice) using either crayon or marker to make the suit symbols(I find colored pencils produce a weak, unimpressive tone, so they are best avoided.) After you've done all this, come back to the the thread.

Read it again.

Then post a reply confidently (but without being a dick) and be prepared to be criticized if you are wrong.

jason_t

03-29-2005, 10:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
IDEA: (Since you've pulled this garbage in every thread you've been in so far.) Read each initial post four times. Print it out, copy it by hand to paper (twice) using either crayon or marker to make the suit symbols(I find colored pencils produce a weak, unimpressive tone, so they are best avoided.) After you've done all this, come back to the the thread.

Read it again.

Then post a reply confidently (but without being a dick) and be prepared to be criticized if you are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif rmarroti.