Too many posts about laydowns.

[jacki]

UTG and MP3 are both loose passive.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (13.33 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Hero folds. /images/graemlins/confused.gif
good, bad, or ugly?

[ErrantNight]

you're getting 1:15 on your money closing the action to peel one off.... what do you think?

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
or ugly?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't try doing this often @ $3/6 and expecting to make a profit....ever.

Edit: this link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro) may help you.

[me454555]

I think the free card play is in order here

[Dr. Jones]

Could you guys explain why this is a good spot to try for a free card?

I'm not seeing it.

[Entity]

I don't like a frop raise at all.

Rob

[me454555]

Why not? pot is big? Hero can't fold for 1 bet b/c he is getting proper odds to call. He stated that table is loose passive and he has postion. Seems like the perfect situation to get to the river as cheap as possible.

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not? pot is big? Hero can't fold for 1 bet b/c he is getting proper odds to call. He stated that table is loose passive and he has postion. Seems like the perfect situation to get to the river as cheap as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG limped and then called 2 back to him and bet out into that on the flop. I think raising to get a free card is a bad play because you'll get 3bet often enough, or you'll see a stop and go and won't get your free card. If you want to get to the river as cheap as possible I think hero should call here.

Edit: Especially because UTG is loose passive.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like a frop raise at all.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I like a flop raise. Hopefully, neither player has a 9, and you see the river for free. If one does have a 9, your flop raise might bring them to 3-bet (here's looking at you MP3), and can save you some money getting to a showdown.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or ugly?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't try doing this often @ $3/6 and expecting to make a profit....ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. If these guys are really passive, I don't mind this after the overcall. In any case, it is closer than you imply, IMO.

[Dr. Jones]

But why risk having to fold without seeing the turn card?

I can understand taking one off in this situation, but raising seems like you're just asking for it.

[Harv72b]

Assuming the read is correct...what is a loose/passive going to have on this flop which would cause him to bet into 3 players, including a PFR &amp; a preflop 3-bettor?

Factoring in the player read, I don't think that calling is a smart move, let alone raising. While the raise will probably get you to a SD cheap, you're still going to lose to UTG's flopped trips the vast majority of the time (or even to his AQ; I'd think that even a LP would keep raising QQ, though).

Maybe if Hero had a backdoor flush draw as well as the overcards &amp; backdoor str8 (very possibly counterfeited to a FH along the way), I could see the flop raise trying for a cheap river. But not on this flop.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]

you're getting 1:15 on your money closing the action to peel one off.... what do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I like Arcade Fire and peeling is what I do best.

[me454555]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG and MP3 are both loose passive

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG limped and then called 2 back to him and bet out into that on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what loose passives do, they call stuff. They are also not thinking players.

What range of hands do you put your opponent on? What kind of a hand do you think he 3 bets you w/? I dont think he's got AQ b/c he didn't raise pf. KQ is a possibility but he's loose passive and probobly won't 3 bet w/a paired bored against a pf 3bettor w/just KQ. Assuming he won't 3 bet w/just a Q, you've got 3 outs against either AQ or KQ and given the size of the pot calling 1 bet here is fine. I think a free card play is even better here b/c the pot is just so big and you are likely to get your free card. On top of that, I think KQ and AQ are just as likely holdings as QT, QJ, JT even a pp that might lay down if you raise. Against hands like those, you have more than enough pot equity to make a raise correct.

What if you get 3 bet? you lay it down. You said these guys were loose passive, do you really want to call a 3 bet when you most likely drawing to runner runner at best.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not? pot is big? Hero can't fold for 1 bet b/c he is getting proper odds to call. He stated that table is loose passive and he has postion. Seems like the perfect situation to get to the river as cheap as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

A flop raise isn't going to get you to the river as cheaply as possible.

The whole free card play is overused, and even bad players know that. Sometimes they'll 3-bet with a hand you still have 6 outs against, and sometimes they'll pull everyone's favorite move: the stop and go. And then you've invested 1BB when you could have invested .5. You aren't cleaning up outs by raising here, since you aren't folding KQ or AQ, so unless the free card play will work really really often (and honestly, I don't think it will), I don't like the play here.

Clarkmeister has a great post somewhere about one of the biggest thing low-limit players need to unlearn is the free card play.

Rob

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Clarkmeister has a great post somewhere about one of the biggest thing low-limit players need to unlearn is the free card play.

[/ QUOTE ]

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=321233&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb =5&amp;o=)

[jacki]

Let me expand on my reads and see if that changes anything.
UTG was something like 70vpip and 0pfr. He called any retarded 1-card draw to the river. He bet out with any piece of the board.
MP3 had the ability to get a little tricky postflop.
UTG's bet meant he had a Q or a 9 or at the very least a straight draw.
MP3 most likely had the same range.

I didn't think my outs were very clean. I folded. Still not sure I like it though.

[me454555]

Ed Miller also has a quote, "When the pot gets big, you have to play little more aggressively"

"If your draw is worth seeing one card for one small bet, it is almost always worth seeing 2 cards for 2 small bets" ~ Ed Miller, SSH, pg 169 on the free card play

If the pot was smaller, I'd say peel one off and toss it on the turn unimproved. The pot is so big That you don't want to make a mistake of folding incorrectly when you have as many as 6 outs here against a hand like QJ or a pp. Whats your plan of action if you don't improve on the turn and UTG bets into you again. If he's got AQ/KQ, or trips, your making an incorrect call, if he's got QJ, QT, or a PP your making an incorrect fold. This is a tough situation to be in b/c you haven't let him define his hand yet. By raising the flop, you make the rest of the hand easier to play.

Your opponents are "LOOSE PASSIVE" This is the most important part of the post. Why are you so worried about getting 3 bet. If they 3 bet, they have trips and you can toss it, its that simple.

Clarkmeister mentioned that the free card play was overused at the LL games, he didn't say it shouldn't be used. This seems like perfect time to use it. You have a marginal hand in a big pot against 2 players who aren't likely to 3bet you w/out trips. You don't want to make an incorrect fold here and getting a free card on the turn would be hugely positive EV b/c of the size of the pot. Your risking one small bet to win a huge pot. This seems like it could come strait out of sshe.

[me454555]

If you had as many as 3 clean outs, you're good to call

[jacki]

I should have raised.

I was up against QJ and QT.

Turn was a brick, River was an A.

[me454555]

If you read the post, there is a lot of debate on that point. Clark is also refering to a free card play when you have a flush or strait draw and can raise the turn with confidenced if you hit had you just called the flop. This may not be the case here b/c raising the turn after calling the flop could be bad b/c you may be up against trips or KQ and AK and get 3 bet.

He also says one of the reasons this does not work is that online players gernerally tend to bet inot you on the turn. In this particular hand we are refering to loose passive players.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
If you read the post, there is a lot of debate on that point. Clark is also refering to a free card play when you have a flush or strait draw and can raise the turn with confidenced if you hit had you just called the flop. This may not be the case here b/c raising the turn after calling the flop could be bad b/c you may be up against trips or KQ and AK and get 3 bet.

He also says one of the reasons this does not work is that online players gernerally tend to bet inot you on the turn. In this particular hand we are refering to loose passive players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read the link, many times. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

You might not be addressing me directly. If you are, I'm not advocating any particular line here - I'm just providing the link Entity referred to.

I lean towards the free card play, however. I think it works more often than many 2+2ers believe, but less often than other 2+2ers believe. I think its good in this case.

I think this hand warrants further discussion tho.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller also has a quote, "When the pot gets big, you have to play little more aggressively"

"If your draw is worth seeing one card for one small bet, it is almost always worth seeing 2 cards for 2 small bets" ~ Ed Miller, SSH, pg 169 on the free card play

If the pot was smaller, I'd say peel one off and toss it on the turn unimproved. The pot is so big That you don't want to make a mistake of folding incorrectly when you have as many as 6 outs here against a hand like QJ or a pp. Whats your plan of action if you don't improve on the turn and UTG bets into you again. If he's got AQ/KQ, or trips, your making an incorrect call, if he's got QJ, QT, or a PP your making an incorrect fold. This is a tough situation to be in b/c you haven't let him define his hand yet. By raising the flop, you make the rest of the hand easier to play.

Your opponents are "LOOSE PASSIVE" This is the most important part of the post. Why are you so worried about getting 3 bet. If they 3 bet, they have trips and you can toss it, its that simple.

Clarkmeister mentioned that the free card play was overused at the LL games, he didn't say it shouldn't be used. This seems like perfect time to use it. You have a marginal hand in a big pot against 2 players who aren't likely to 3bet you w/out trips. You don't want to make an incorrect fold here and getting a free card on the turn would be hugely positive EV b/c of the size of the pot. Your risking one small bet to win a huge pot. This seems like it could come strait out of sshe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm just getting stop and go'd here a lot at $3/6, but what ends up happening a LOT of the time is this:

Hero raises, EP calls, MP calls.

Turn: Whatever. EP checks, MP bets...

The only thing that the raise here does is have some possibility of giving you a free card. I rarely make a raise based solely on the merits of getting a free card; sometimes I raise because I think I have the best hand, other times because I might be able to fold out better hands, but as far as just for the free card goes, meh, I don't do it often. It's possible that I'm just more accustomed to aggressive games.

Rob

[me454555]

Didn't mean to address you directly, just people who read the post but didn't bother to click the link. I thought there were important enough differences between clarks post and this hand to point it out.

I actually enjoy talking about hands like these b/c there are important strategical decisions to be made and hands like these come up quite often. Much more informative than "I floped a Royal, how do I play it"

[me454555]

Thats why your opponents read is so important. If they were LAGs or unknown, calling would probobly be better.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats why your opponents read is so important. If they were LAGs or unknown, calling would probobly be better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Loose passive isn't a good enough read for me. I understand the meaning, but what I'm saying is that I get stop and go'd very frequently by people who are textbook loose-passives.

Too many players at these levels are familiar with a free card raise and won't get scared enough to check the turn with TPGK.

If they're truly passive enough to fall for the free card raise often enough for it to be profitable, are they really betting this flop into the PFR that often?

Rob

[Vaftrudner]

weak. /v

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
weak. /v

[/ QUOTE ]
insightful

[me454555]

Your free card play is very hidden here. You 3bet pf and raised the flop. There is no flush draw on the board but there is a strait draw, although who 3 bets pf w/TJ? What hand will your opponents put you on? Overpair, AQ, FH? This raise seems very much in line w/the way you'd play most hands you 3 bet pf. Your opponent will not suspect the free card play utiill it is too late.

[Siingo]

You had 15:1 with two overcards and a backdoor stright... I would go for the freecard. RAISE! You might even be ahead here (I know you were not but you could have been)....