What effect does running bad have on poor players

[bad beetz]

Good players do not change their game depending on whether they are winning of losing. Bad players do, I assume.

What is a poor player more/less likely to do when he/she is running bad?

[Ryan_21]

I don't think poor players play is affected that much, because if we are talking about poor players I assume we mean recreational players? Most recreational players expect to lose anyway. I think its the stupidest thing when I here people are going to the cardroom/casino and they say "I'm bringing $100 thats all I can afford to lose." Yeah its good that they know their limits, but most of them expect to lose, so when they are losing they are probably playing normal to them.

Ryan_21

[Al Schoonmaker]

It is not necessarily stupid to say or think, "I'm going to lose just $100." You have to relate that thought (or any other)to the person's motives. Actions or thoughts which seem stupid from your or my perspective may be quite sensible from theirs.

You and I play to win. They don't. They essentially spend money for pleasure. On the rare occasions that they win, it's a bonus. That is no more stupid than spending money to eat in a fine restaurant or go skiing, and it is much more intelligent than spending it on cocaine or alcohol.

Let me go further. From the traditional economist's profit-maximization perspective, playing poker is stupid except for a tiny number who can make real money at it. I know lots of excellent players, but hardly any of them make significant money at poker. People proudly tell me they make $12 or $30 or $50 per hour, but that's peanuts for people with their talent. I know doctors and lawyers whose time is worth hundreds per hour who are proud to win a tiny fraction of their billing rate.

It's not the money that counts, it's WINNING it that matters. It's the same reason that golfers want to cut their handicaps, and runners want to run faster. In other words, we have to look at people's motives and understand the satisfactions they get from various actions and results.

Is it stupid for a $300 per hour attorney to be pleased with winning $30 per hour? From an opportunity cost basis it is. Every hour he plays "costs" him $270 in lost earnings. The poor player who could earn $10 per hour, but loses $10 per hour is only costing himself $20 per hour.

Please forgive the digression. Let's get back to the original question. The largest change in poor player's actions when they get stuck is to play more foolishly, especially if they go past Mike Caro's "Threshold of pain." They start to hurt, and they feel they won't hurt any more if they lose "just" another buy-in. They play even more poorly, trying to get even, or not giving a damn. They become looser, and many of them become more aggressive. A few idiots even move to bigger games and take losses they can't handle.

A few people get so mad at losing that they go to the crap tables. "Since I'll never get even here, I'll go where I've got a shot." Low limit poker players sometimes blow a thousand or more at the crap table, just because they can't handle their losses.

So what are the lessons? First, try to understand WHY people play the way they do. Second and much more important, understand why YOU play the way you do? Third, when you feel that your emotions are taking over, GO HOME.

Al

[bad beetz]

Thank you for the insight.

BTW, my emotions never change my game. period. (unless it's subconscious, but I don't see how that's possible considering every action I take in poker is a conscious decision) I think you may be right that a real bad run for a poor player may loosen him/her up, which is counter intuitive to me, because if running bad were to affect my play, I imagine it would make me tighten up.

My real question should have probably been, how do I take advantage of a poor player I know is running very bad?

(wow! that made me sound like an unscrupulous a*shole didn't it. /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif )

[Ryan_21]

I totally agree 100% with your assesment of peoples motives. I know its not stupid to them, what I really ment to say was that it sounds stupid to ME. Sorry about the confusion.

Ryan_21

[Jimbo]

bad beetz,

you said "......considering every action I take in poker is a conscious decision)" How can you be so sure? Why do you think they call it subconscious? Have you never made a crying call? If so musn't the reason you called been subconscious otherwise it would be an easy call. One more example, have you ever limped in an early posotion with a hand your normally muck? Why? Just a few thoughts to toss your way. I believe we all make many more subconscious observations that our conscious mind uses to make those poker decisions.


Jimbo

[bad beetz]

I guess feelings can subconsciously sway a marginal call. For example, the fact that you are down and REALLY want to win the hand, your subconscious may tell you that your opponent is bluffing, or you may pick up a tell and give it more value then it's worth because your running bad and want to stay in the hand. That is a good example of how subconscious thoughts could affect conscious decisions.

However, my starting hands are not affected, I know when and when not to open with a hand (although whether I'm right or wrong in certain situations is certainly up in the air) so to "talk myself into" calling a marginal hand preflop would certainly be a conscious decision. It is not affected by my feelings. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Jedi Poker]

"Good players do not change their game depending on whether they are winning or losing."

Yes they do. When a good player is winning and senses that his opponents are somewhat intimidated by his "luck", he'll exploit his "lucky" image by temporarily shifting to a higher gear. When his cards are running bad and he senses that some of his opponents are getting "brave" and are going to take shots at him, he'll temporarily tighten up on his playing requirements in order to keep them out of striking distance.
Needless to say, this is much more true in tourneys than in live games due to the relative stack size factor.

[Jedi Poker]

"When you feel that your emotions are taking over, GO HOME"....and do not come back!.....until you've learned the skills nescessary to detach, go above, and go to a meta position relative to your emotions.
There is nothing that could happen within a poker session that could possibly be traumatic enough to justify allowing one's emotions to take over oneself. Nothing.
It's okay to let emotions take over when there is a major and real life tragedy like death in a family for example. But let's keep poker in perspective. Getting outdrawn by runner runner inside straights 30 times in one session is nothing. Poker's just a game. Let us learn to laugh at our own bad beats.

[Jedi Poker]

As market wizard Ed Seykota said, "Know the subtle difference between "intuition" and "into-wishing"."

[Al Schoonmaker]

Beetz,

You wrote: "BTW, my emotions never change my game. period. (unless it's subconscious, but I don't see how that's possible considering every action I take in poker is a conscious decision" You're kidding yourself. EVERYBODY is constantly affected by unconscious drives. That's the fundamental premise of psychoanalysis. In fact, the primary purpose of psychoanalystic therapy is to uncover and thereby gain some control over these unconscious drives.

You also wrote: "My real question should have probably been, how do I take advantage of a poor player I know is running very bad?

(wow! that made me sound like an unscrupulous a*shole didn't it. )"

Two points. It does not make you sound like an unscrupulous anything. In fact, we recently had a thread about feeling guilty about taking advantage of people's mistakes. I wrote that anyone who feels guilty about taking advantage of other people's errors is playing the wrong game. Poker is INTRINSICALLY predatory. The purpose of the game is to take each other's money, and we're going to take it (over the long term) ONLY from the people who play worse than we do.
The second point is that there are lots of things you can do to take advantage of a poor player who is running bad, but it would take too long to discuss it now. It's 4 AM, and I've got to get to bed. I'll try to get back to this subject later.

Al

[Al Schoonmaker]

Beetz,

You may be right that emotions and unconscious factors don't affect your starting hands, but that is the least judgmental part of poker. A computer could easily select the proper hands, using formulas. It's later on, when the decisions become less formulistic, that unconscious factors will have their largest effects. You gave a couple of good examples in your post.

A good rule to follow is that the less objective the data, the greater effect your emotions and unconscious forces will have on your decisions.

Al

[Al Schoonmaker]

You wrote: "Poker's just a game. Let us learn to laugh at our own bad beats."

I agree 100% I have always been astonished at people who get upset while playing games (even when I did it myself). I remember caddying as a kid. Some players who get furious when they were playing by themselves!!

We have a little more excuse for getting upset because we are playing for real money, but it is still a flimsy excuse. Poker is a great game, but that is all it is. If it ain't fun, don't play.

Al

[bad beetz]

oh, believe me, I feel anything but guilty, and I AM an unscrupulous ***** /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[bad beetz]

good point, meant to say:

"Good players do not change their game depending on emotional factors that come from winning or losing."

[brad]

from what i understand, emotions can affect underlying factors of cognition, such as perception, which are the building blocks so to speak of rational thought process (which if you think about it rational thought can 'rationality check' itself so the top level of thought so to speak can be immune from emotional 'contamination', but what im trying to say is that this does not guarantee that emotions can be 'filtered out'.) .

brad

a real sicko!

[Ryan_21]

...I've gotten compliments from other posters though. Thought it would be original to put a pic of something that symbolizes my personality, and Pac pretty much gets the job done.

Ryan_21