Why did I do this? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

sfer

03-08-2005, 01:11 AM

I hate readless hands but I wasn't paying attention much and thus readless. My image probably sucks though. Probably showing down a lot of bluffs and very LAGish.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises, 6 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises...

GrunchCan

03-08-2005, 01:16 AM

Becasuse you have the best hand, and the most equity.

jason_t

03-08-2005, 01:17 AM

Why on Earth are you playing 1/2? Why on Earth am I reading a micro-limit post? Why on Earth do you think you are doing something wrong?

zeropotential

03-08-2005, 01:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why did I do this?

[/ QUOTE ]
b/c your sfer and you can do what you want

Bizot

03-08-2005, 01:18 AM

i'd go ahead and raise the flop here to see what is going on, better to raise for a SB than a BB if you are getting smoked?

ArturiusX

03-08-2005, 01:19 AM

Gutshot + 2nd pair. You can easily fold to a three bet, and you might get a cheap showdown on the river when alls said and done.

Entity

03-08-2005, 01:19 AM

I like it. I think it'd be cool for new micro players to actually answer why sfer did this, though. It's not because he's a LAG.

Rob

Shillx

03-08-2005, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Gutshot + 2nd pair. You can easily fold to a three bet, and you might get a cheap showdown on the river when alls said and done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try agan. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Brad

ArturiusX

03-08-2005, 01:24 AM

Heh, damn it /images/graemlins/frown.gif

zeropotential

03-08-2005, 01:25 AM

b/c he's ahead more then 50% of the time... he didn't do anything on the flop b/c he wanted to wait for a safe card + get more money from his raise

GrunchCan

03-08-2005, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
b/c he's ahead more then 50% of the time... he didn't do anything on the flop b/c he wanted to wait for a safe card + get more money from his raise

[/ QUOTE ]

And what about the 3-bet?

sfer

03-08-2005, 01:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why on Earth are you playing 1/2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Practicing 6 tabling! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Why on Earth am I reading a micro-limit post?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because Micro is where it's at! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Why on Earth do you think you are doing something wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there's another way to play the hand! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

zeropotential

03-08-2005, 01:40 AM

since nobodys putting up any new reasons... will you give me your reasoning?

btspider

03-08-2005, 01:48 AM

side question:

each turn diamond presents some interesting scenarios

what's the plan (facing a bet) for a turn
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?
Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?
J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?
other /images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

sfer

03-08-2005, 01:55 AM

Question pour moi?

GrunchCan

03-08-2005, 02:13 AM

Ok, I'm not exactly a new micros poster. But I have trouble with this hand, so I wanna answer...

SB is very unlikely to have either a K or 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs. If he did, he usually will CR either the flop or the turn. But he's betting straight. Most likely for SB is some kind of draw, either of trump or straight.

If I raise the turn 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif and get 3-bet, I call down. If SB calls the 3-bet and checks the river, I bet a non-/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. If SB calls the 3-bet and SnG's the river, I fold.

[ QUOTE ]
side question:

each turn diamond presents some interesting scenarios

what's the plan (facing a bet) for a turn
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?
Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?
J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?
other /images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]

If a diamond fell that completed 2 draws, I'd fold or check behind. Otherwise, I'd show down for free.

kumarshah

03-08-2005, 02:14 AM

Well for once you have a better chance of getting SB to fold on the turn then you do on the flop. Raising on the flop would still give him 8-1 on the call.

At the same time the 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif is card that hardly matters on this flop, it doesn't help anybody. By raising you are representing a made hand and may make SB think about playing TP or chasing a draw.

ANd I maybe totally wrong too.

Entity

03-08-2005, 02:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Well for once you have a better chance of getting SB to fold on the turn then you do on the flop. Raising on the flop would still give him 8-1 on the call.

[/ QUOTE ]
You aren't raising to fold SB at any point during this hand.

Rob

bottomset

03-08-2005, 02:18 AM

yeah, its not likely that SB has the made hand, so you call the flop, and raise a turn blank

mr pink

03-08-2005, 02:25 AM

sb is more likely betting a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif draw than a king. raise the turn when you have a bigger edge.

btspider

03-08-2005, 02:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Question pour moi?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure, though your answers would reveal quite a bit about your original hand's thoughts.

i guess I should stab at it rather than ask for an answer.. i don't like the scenarios those cards represent, but here's an attempt:

turn: 4.5 BB's...

turn A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
a bad card indeed. a fold feels premature given the flop call and pot seems sufficiently large to fight for. i'd favor a raise (fold to a 3-bet) over a calldown. a baby diamond may fold (doubtful), a K may fold, etc..

turn: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
call down, raise the river if we improve. a baby flush might fold if we raise, a river /images/graemlins/diamond.gif may counterfeit our best hand.
i think a better line would be to raise, call a 3-bet, and fold the river UI.. but i don't feel confident folding the river for one bet, and I don't think this pot is large enough to spew 4 big bets on the big streets.
edit: not worth facing a 3-bet. call and let him keep betting his pair rather than get out of the pot easily.

turn: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
edited: calldown. let his pair keep betting your hand. spend the same (as raise-foldTo3bet when he has a flush).

turn: other /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
raise and fold to a 3-bet. this is actually similar to the J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif turn aside from a 'less' scary board and we still haven't passed Kx.. so I think a raise here is more important than the J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif turn scenario.

thoughts? most of these thoughts involve somewhat unlikely 3-bets..

jason_t

03-08-2005, 06:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why on Earth do you think you are doing something wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there's another way to play the hand! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

So your question was meant to be "I know I'm doing the right thing, but can you explain why?" and not "OMG WTF did I do that for? There must be a better line but what is it?"

Instructive rather than inquisitive?

deepsquat

03-08-2005, 06:53 AM

Im having alot of probs understanding this hand, can someone explain definitively the reasoning behind the turn raise Would hero raise any non diamond? im a newbie /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Big Folder

03-08-2005, 07:16 AM

isnt it just the turn can cripple your hand many ways so wait for a safe card and when it comes bet for value? If the guy doesn't fold he is likely drawing with a single flush card so you can move onto the river and play accordingly.

Pharity

03-08-2005, 08:52 AM

I think the raise is good since if SB is on a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif-draw his equity went down when a non /images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell on the turn. He'll call our raise on the turn, but will probably check/fold the river. I think he only rarely will 3-bet us. If he would we'll have to call since we probably have 3 good outs for the straight, we'll win often if Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif falls on the river and if villain holds T9/T8/98 we'll have tons of outs.

This is my own theory but I'm far from an expert so it would be nice to get to know if I'm out of line here...

Nick Royale

03-08-2005, 10:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the raise is good since if SB is on a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif-draw his equity went down when a non /images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell on the turn. He'll call our raise on the turn, but will probably check/fold the river. I think he only rarely will 3-bet us. If he would we'll have to call since we probably have 3 good outs for the straight, we'll win often if Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif falls on the river and if villain holds T9/T8/98 we'll have tons of outs.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like this reasoning. Add to that SB would probably bet both flop and turn with T or 9 but I think he'll slow down with these hands on the river and just check/call. Still Hero's image is LAGish so SB will probably call down with a T or 9 even if we raise the turn (especially if he also holds a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif). Sure, sometimes SB have flopped a set, straight, flush or 2 pair and we will get 3-betted, but these times will be in a great minority.

LoaferGee12

03-08-2005, 11:12 AM

I'd be inclined to take a free show down here. What do you think? I'm just not seeing many hands he is going to call that river with that we have beat after we popped the turn.

waynethetrain

03-08-2005, 11:14 AM

I'm obviously wrong, but against an UTG raiser I don't see the SB betting the flop with anything less than a K or 4 diamonds.

I don't think you can assume he would have check raised with a pair of kings, because there are plenty of pre-flop raise hands that include a K and would have him beat. I think he betting because he has a hand, but is not certain he is best.

With a K, he could figure he has TT-QQ, AJ, AJs, and AQ, AQs, beat and is only losing to AK, AKs, KK, AA.

If he has 4 diamonds that gives him 35% plus any chance he has of driving you out with his bet in case you don't have a pair.

He could also have something like pocket 99 or TT because both of those would be callable from the SB against a raise. Though IMO it would have made more sense to CR at some point instead of leading out on the flop.

There is also at least some very small chance he already has the flush.

To be quite honest, I think you are beat more often than not. There just aren't that many hands a SB should be calling against an early position pre flop raiser that don't have you beat when the guy comes out betting on the flop.

The blank on the turn helps in the cases that he only has 4 diamonds. So I can see the raise, but I still question the assumption that you are ahead here more than 50% of the time. I think it's a very close call at best where you stand.

kenberman

03-08-2005, 11:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I hate readless hands but I wasn't paying attention much and thus readless. My image probably sucks though. Probably showing down a lot of bluffs and very LAGish.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises, 6 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises...

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c you probably have the best hand, but are waiting for a non-scare card on the turn to raise.

Nick Royale

03-08-2005, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the SB betting the flop with anything less than a K or 4 diamonds. /.../ There just aren't that many hands a SB should be calling against an early position pre flop raiser that don't have you beat when the guy comes out betting on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Playing 1-2 I don't think we can narrow the hands of SB very much without a read.

[ QUOTE ]
With a K, he could figure he has TT-QQ, AJ, AJs, and AQ, AQs

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't see a pair of K's having a set of T's beat. If SB flopped a pair of T's or 9's he still has AQ and AJ beat. Add to that the LAGish image of hero and we can't assume that SB has narrowed the holdings of Hero that much.

Nick Royale

03-08-2005, 12:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be inclined to take a free show down here. What do you think? I'm just not seeing many hands he is going to call that river with that we have beat after we popped the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because of the LAGish image of Hero I bet a non /images/graemlins/diamond.gif river if checked to.

sfer

03-08-2005, 12:26 PM

I'm folding every diamond that hits except the Q, and then I'm probably calling but thinking about folding.

yellowjack

03-08-2005, 12:27 PM

He obviously thinks you're trying to steal his small blind and he's rightfully defending.

---

SB is much more likely to be betting a diamond draw with any sort of medium-high diamond card than a K. I don't feel like typing out any more math today on the combinations of hands.

You're charging SB by raising the turn (ok I cheated) for his diamond draw. I'm still having trouble putting SB on a hand though. Assuming he isn't a total idiot, he has high cards with possibly a K or a diamond: the diamond being more likely.

If SB is crazy enough to 3-bet a 4-flush on the turn and you don't have a read on him, I'd be very unhappy but I don't see how you can call this one down profitably.

This hand is confusing. Hell this entire thread is confusing, I quit.

btspider

03-08-2005, 12:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm folding every diamond that hits except the Q, and then I'm probably calling but thinking about folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm.. if the pot were smaller, i could see it, but a readless opponent could easily be betting a pair here. i'd hate to have the flop smooth call lose the hand for us.

maybe i'm treating the hand as a 6max hand where i'd give the SB a much larger range and less credit on the flop bet.

Nick Royale

03-08-2005, 12:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He obviously thinks you're trying to steal his small blind and he's rightfully defending.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this being sarcastic? I'm to tired to sense, but since a steal from UTG seems silly I assume you are /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
If SB is crazy enough to 3-bet a 4-flush on the turn and you don't have a read on him, I'd be very unhappy but I don't see how you can call this one down profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]
Will SB 3-bet these hands?
TT, 99, T9, 88, T8, 98: you'll have 5-12 outs. You have to see the river, not call the river though...

sfer

03-08-2005, 04:46 PM

The turn raise is the last bet I put into the pot. A King will usually give me a free showdown, and a lone diamond or OESD will call and check to me on the river unimproved (or sometimes even improved if they're attempting a checkraise) and I get to extract the maximum from a draw, forcing them to put two bets to draw when they're willing to pay.

It's also an easy fold to a 3-bet.

So villain called, the river blanked and checked down. He had A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif and MHIG.

waynethetrain

03-08-2005, 04:53 PM

I understand you point, but I think it questionable to assume the SB is very foolish.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see a pair of K's having a set of T's beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[ QUOTE ]
If SB flopped a pair of T's or 9's he still has AQ and AJ beat. Add to that the LAGish image of hero and we can't assume that SB has narrowed the holdings of Hero that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I must give $1 - $2 players more credit for noticing EP raises and adjusting their play a bit. Of course if I have a read that the guy is super loose that would be a different story.

LoaferGee12

03-08-2005, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the SB betting the flop with anything less than a K or 4 diamonds. /.../ There just aren't that many hands a SB should be calling against an early position pre flop raiser that don't have you beat when the guy comes out betting on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing 1-2 I don't think we can narrow the hands of SB very much without a read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we can narrow down the hands that he would pay off us off with on the river. After our turn raise I really see very few hands he is going to pay off on the river that we beat. This is why I would take the free showdown.

Nick Royale

03-08-2005, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I must give $1 - $2 players more credit for noticing EP raises and adjusting their play a bit. Of course if I have a read that the guy is super loose that would be a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't assume he's more foolish than the average 1-2 player. But from the blinds the average 1-2 player make stupid calls pretty often. i'm often getting called by the blinds when i've raised and it's folded to them often. I can't assume they're always holding 66-99 KQs AJs and like.

Nick Royale

03-08-2005, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think we can narrow down the hands that he would pay off us off with on the river. After our turn raise I really see very few hands he is going to pay off on the river that we beat. This is why I would take the free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
At micros you'll often get paid off by crappy holdings. If hero also has been shown several bluff and weak hands on the river and has gotten a LAGish image you'll get called by even worse hands.

Nick Royale

03-08-2005, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's also an easy fold to a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
TT, 99, T9, 88, T8, 98: you'll have 5-12 outs.
If SB is willing to 3-bet these hands, will not a fold to a 3-bet be wrong getting 8.5:1? Isn't SB willing to 3-bet those? Since your LAGish image it feels like he'll 3-bet more hands than usual.

If SB have flopped a straight we're only drawing to a split pot. If he have flopped a flush we're drawing dead. But that won't be the case very often