99 on the button...

[smiely]

No particular reads on anyone - seemed to be a general crowd of weak, loose-passive .50/1 players

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.50. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Ok, so I had an overpair, but an easily dominated one, should an overcard come on the turn or river. Raising isn't going to accomplish anything except build the pot for more weak draws to call on the turn, so I was waiting to see the turn card and to hopefully get the opportunity to raise on a non-scary card to knock some people out.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO folds, Hero...

How scary is this turn card? It's low, doesn't put much of anything in the way of straights on the board, gives me a flush draw, BUT puts 3 to a flush on the board for someone who may have a stronger made flush, or a higher heart. What should my course of action be?

[gvibes]

I don't know what you should do, but why didn't your raise the flop?

[ArturiusX]

Raise this flop. If your so worried about the weakness of your hand, calling is easily the worst option.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise this flop [...] calling is easily the worst option.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There is no way hero can protect given the relative position of the flop raiser -- no one is folding for one more bet here, and all that we accomplish is to trap the field for 2 bets.

This is a classic spot where waiting for the turn is a good idea. If a bad card (flush, overcard) falls and there is significant action, we can let go of our hand. If a blank falls, we can raise the turn and earn 2BB when our equity is much higher.

Note that this is right out of the "two overpair hands" section of SSH, except there hero has TT on a 2-flush undercard board instead of 99 as here.

[ArturiusX]

You actually think we're scaring people on the turn by just calling? The pots 8 BB and juicey enough.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise this flop. If your so worried about the weakness of your hand, calling is easily the worst option.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You actually think we're scaring people on the turn by just calling? The pots 8 BB and juicey enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused. Are you talking about the flop or the turn? I advocated raising on a turn blank, not calling ...

EDIT: Note that I'm advocating raising a turn blank for value, not for protection. There is no way you can protect on either street if UTG is the bettor.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise this flop [...] calling is easily the worst option.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There is no way hero can protect given the relative position of the flop raiser -- no one is folding for one more bet here, and all that we accomplish is to trap the field for 2 bets.

This is a classic spot where waiting for the turn is a good idea. If a bad card (flush, overcard) falls and there is significant action, we can let go of our hand. If a blank falls, we can raise the turn and earn 2BB when our equity is much higher.

Note that this is right out of the "two overpair hands" section of SSH, except there hero has TT on a 2-flush undercard board instead of 99 as here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post. Turn play is pretty tough.

I'm raising the turn but I don't yet know what the hell I'm doing if I get 3-bet.

Rob

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm raising the turn with the intention of putting no more money in the pot. I'm not sure though.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

i think we have to raise the turn. folding the J and T of flushes would be nice. folding the Q of flushes may be possible if it faces 2 bets. (added: along with all the overcards of course)

the problem is i'm not sure we can fold to a 3-bet (HU).
if he has a flush, we have 4 outs.
if he has 6x, we might have a boatload of flush outs to go with our two 9 outs.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn play is pretty tough.

I think I'm raising the turn with the intention of putting no more money in the pot. I'm not sure though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what the best move is on the turn either, which is why I didn't sound off on it. I know I don't like a call here, since if we think we're ahead we have a perfect opportunity to raise here and protect our hand. If we're behind we're pretty screwed and don't have odds to draw.

You're advocating a raise/fold here? If so, assuming you just get called, why wouldn't you bet the river? It feels like most better hands would 3-bet the turn rather than getting fancy by flat-calling and check-raising the river.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm raising the turn with the intention of putting no more money in the pot. I'm not sure though.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

i think we have to raise the turn. folding the J and T of flushes would be nice. folding the Q of flushes may be possible if it faces 2 bets.

the problem is i'm not sure we can fold to a 3-bet (HU).
if he has a flush, we have 4 outs.
if he has 6x, we might have a boatload of flush outs to go with our two 9 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I think he just has something like top pair, which is why I said I'm not sure it's the last bet I put into the pot. If he calls my raise I bet the river. So I lied about it being the last bet I put in to the pot.

I doubt I get 3-bet by a rando 6 very often, but I guess it'll happen sometimes, so I think we're looking at around 4 outs when we get 3-bet, so calling is correct. Without knowing what our outs are, that puts us in a tough place on the river.

It's a tricky turn, but I do think raising is the best play. I'd have to sit and think for a bit to figure out what's best when 3-bet.

Rob

[Shillx]

This hand is a bitch. I have a theory (had it for a long time) that on a straightening (spelling) board you should be quick to raise the flop in a small pot and raise the turn in a big pot with a vulnerable hand. I would raise the turn here (I like the flop call but I would raise the flop in an unraised pot) and cry if we get 3-bet. I don't think we can fold if we do...

Brad

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt I get 3-bet by a rando 6 very often, but I guess it'll happen sometimes, so I think we're looking at around 4 outs when we get 3-bet, so calling is correct. Without knowing what our outs are, that puts us in a tough place on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i know what you mean. we might have enough outs to call the turn, but if we still have to throw away a bet on the river when we catch the flush, we might not have actually had enough odds to call the turn in the first place.

the concept is interesting and i think you might be able to come up with a hand where it actually turns a call into a fold. in this hand, there is too much overlay and we can still call the turn profitably even if it means tossing away another bet when the flush comes in.

do you raise a river 6? fold to a river 3-bet? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

very cool hand.. i'm favoriting this one.

[JDErickson]

I like the flop call due to what others have mentioned.

I raise the turn. I'm folding if 3 bet.

[smiely]

Wow, these are some excellent replies. This hand really made me stop and think, and made Jar and I debate it for a while last night. Here's some more action, and reasoning...

Turn: (8.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (14.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero...

So I did end up raising the turn, since I had a chance to get it down to HU. UTG+1 coldcalled me though, making me wonder what he had... a single high heart, maybe? If I was 3-bet on the turn, I would have called that, and depending on the river, called one bet (for a flush card) or raised (a 9 or mayyyyybe a 6, I haven't quite decided on that, it would have depended on the action).

So, the river. My flush came in, but my 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif isn't exactly terribly strong. Both players checked to me. Not sure if that's weakness, or a check-raise attempt. Check it through and take the free showdown, or is this a good value bet? I still feel there's a decent chance that I may have the best hand, and I might be able to get a lone 6 to fold. Thoughts?

[Buckmulligan]

Ok.... you raise for sure here on the turn. FOR SURE! I think you lost a lot of value on raising on the flop as it was, but since you didn't, you have to raise here.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok.... you raise for sure here on the turn. FOR SURE! I think you lost a lot of value on raising on the flop as it was, but since you didn't, you have to raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop isn't nearly as good as waiting to raise the turn here. I won't say it's bad, but it's not as good as waiting. That should be clear.

Rob

[Buckmulligan]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop isn't nearly as good as waiting to raise the turn here. I won't say it's bad, but it's not as good as waiting. That should be clear.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I was mainly saying that if you choose not to raise the flop, you are making a strategic decision to raise on the turn if a blank fires. ALthough the heart isn't a blank, I was commenting that it would be a disaster not to raise here as he innitially planned.

[MrWookie47]

Call me paranoid, but I think I like check behind. I would not at all be surprised to see UTG+1 drooling at his computer screen with his A /images/graemlins/heart.gif X suckout waiting to check/raise you. Cold calling 2 on the turn looks a lot like he picked up a flush draw there as well. Also, why would you why would you want a lone 6 to fold the river?

On the other hand, there are many worse hands that might pay you off (a 6, lower /images/graemlins/heart.gif, maybe even a K). I don't think you could get a better hand to fold here. I think the high risk of a check/raise here, though, still makes me want to check behind.

Great hand, and I want to see what everyone else has to say about the river. I like your flop and turn play, although I'm not sure I would have had the self control to just call the flop.

Edited for stupidity.

[smiely]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, why would you why would you want a lone 6 to fold the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, that's what I get for posting as soon as I wake up. Everyone, please ignore my reasoning for trying to make better hands fold on the river, because it's completely and totally flawed. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[btspider]

bump. read this one too guys.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok.... you raise for sure here on the turn. FOR SURE! I think you lost a lot of value on raising on the flop as it was, but since you didn't, you have to raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop isn't nearly as good as waiting to raise the turn here. I won't say it's bad, but it's not as good as waiting. That should be clear.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed with that. I'm raising for value if UTG bets a blank, but now that MP is raising a flush card I might have to take this opportunity to protect my hand. the T, and J of hearts are probably folding here, in addition to pretty much all non heart overcards. with me in late position, it's nice because I get to decide whether to value bet or take the free showdown depending, or even fold. I think we have to call a 3 bet on the turn as I think Shillx mentioned. but in a passive game protecting &gt; -EV of getting 3 bet here, IMO.

[KaiShin]

This is a great read for anyone wondering when to curb aggression, and when to show it.

[Zoelef]

From the first post, I immediately concluded that I would raise since the flop raiser checked through on the turn. If I face a reraise, I call a 3-bet and check/fold UI on the river.

FWIW, I play this the same.

[DoctorDrew]

So, the key is not that raising the flop is -EV. It is still +EV, but your pot equity edge is small. And if you raise the flop, you are more likely to be checked to on the turn, where (if a blank falls) you pot equity edge is much larger, making a turn raise much greater +EV. So, call the flop so you CAN raise the turn.

Is this correct?

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
So, the key is not that raising the flop is -EV. It is still +EV, but your pot equity edge is small. And if you raise the flop, you are more likely to be checked to on the turn, where (if a blank falls) you pot equity edge is much larger, making a turn raise much greater +EV. So, call the flop so you CAN raise the turn.

Is this correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, raising the flop is quite likely +EV.. but maybe not by too much. we aren't auto raising the turn.. we're simply reevaluating.

we have good relative position to accomplish a few things. we get to see the turn card and the entire field act before we do. if a card comes and we're facing a raise.. easy easy fold from a likely slowplayed 6, new higher pair, flush, etc. the 9 takes away some of the straight concerns tho.. if a 7 drops and we face a raise, we probably can't fold.

another thing we can accomplish is protecting our hand. the flop bettor will not always bet, so we may get to raise a new bettor as we are suggesting here.

[DoctorDrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, the key is not that raising the flop is -EV. It is still +EV, but your pot equity edge is small. And if you raise the flop, you are more likely to be checked to on the turn, where (if a blank falls) you pot equity edge is much larger, making a turn raise much greater +EV. So, call the flop so you CAN raise the turn.

Is this correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, raising the flop is quite likely +EV.. but maybe not by too much. we aren't auto raising the turn.. we're simply reevaluating.

we have good relative position to accomplish a few things. we get to see the turn card and the entire field act before we do. if a card comes and we're facing a raise.. easy easy fold from a likely slowplayed 6, new higher pair, flush, etc. the 9 takes away some of the straight concerns tho.. if a 7 drops and we face a raise, we probably can't fold.

another thing we can accomplish is protecting our hand. the flop bettor will not always bet, so we may get to raise a new bettor as we are suggesting here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks bt!