A Personal Leak.

[ZebraAss]

I am not sure if this is obvious or not. But I have had a major problem lately when I start getting blinded.
Here are a few situations:

#1

7 handed, 150/300 blinds

I have 800 in BB with 10 7 suited.

Folded to SB who min raises.

Whats the play.

#2.

7 handed, 100/200 blinds

I have 550 in SB and it is folded to me.

The previous hand i folded because 2 players went all in pre flop before me.

So now i am in SB with 97 off suit.

What is the play.

#3.

5 handed, blinds are 150/300

1100 chips(800 after posting) in BB with J 10

It is folded to SB(2200) who completes.

What is the play.

#4.

8 handed, blinds are 50/100

You have 500 chips with KQ off suit in BB.

There are 3 limpers + SB who completes.

What is the play.


My problem is. I just dont know what to do. I honestly dont know. Most of the time I just go off instinct or feeling...WHICH IS AWEFUL!!!

PLEASE HELP ME!!!

[Pepsquad]

Push, Push, Check, Check.

And only in hand #4 is it because of the cards you are actually holding in your hand.

Pep.

[The Yugoslavian]

1. Out of curiosity, do you have 800 chips or 500 chips after posting? I fold here.

2. 550 after posting or 450 after posting? How big a stack is the BB? I fold here too probably.

3. Push. What are the sizes of the other stacks, though?

4. I check and play a K or Q flop like you have the best hand...b/c you will. I could also push here sometimes. Do you have 400 or 500 after posting the 100 BB? What's the texture of the table?

Yugoslav

[ilya]

.

[The Yugoslavian]

You mean for 1,2 and 4 /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

3 is the only hand where he makes it clear.

Yugoslav

[ilya]

Damn you're quick.

[The Yugoslavian]

I'm also you.

Remember? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yugoslav

[curtains]

Hand 1 - I gamble here although some other factors would be nice to know...default answer is to play, the pot odds are just too good. (If someone about to bust and let you into the money, it could change the decision)


Hand 2 - depends what I know about the guy, but usually I view this as my last real chance to make someone fold, and even if they call you usually arent a big dog.

Hand 3 - my default play is to move allin here. Not much could convince me not to unless it was bubbletime and some guy has like no chips left.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also you.

Remember? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

No.... /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Allinlife]

hand 1 is hardest I think

How do you guys respond to minraises in general when you have marginal holding with 1500 ish stack in level 5 or 6?

I think folding is often the right play, but waiting for premium holdings vs minraise allows aggresors to take advantage of your tightness too easily. I think I call with "ok" hands like K8o at times, hope to flop a pair and pretty much go allin everytime I do flop a pair since pot is often too big by flop. Is this a leak?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm also you.

Remember? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

No.... /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

A while back, someone (I think Scuba) thought we were the same person or something.

I remember this. You should too b/c you are me and I am you.

Yugoslav

[bweiser8311962]

[ QUOTE ]
Push, Push, Check, Check.

And only in hand #4 is it because of the cards you are actually holding in your hand.

Pep.


[/ QUOTE ]

Any reasoning behind pushing 1 and 2?

I think 4 is a clear push. You are very shortstacked and looking to get all-in ... K/Q is a good enough hand to risk my last 500 chips in a tournament.

[Unparagoned]

Call me crazy, but I am inclined to push every one of these hands. The one that gives me the most pause is hand 4, but I don't really see any of the limpers holding AK or AQ, the hands I'm really worried about here. I would push expecting to be a 2:3 dog if I am called (Ax). Of course, someone may have limped the big pocket pair, but I guess I just say "gg" and go cry a little bit.

These situations that involve short stacks and lots of players seem to call for action when you get the opportunity. You're still so far from the money and clearly not going anywhere unless you can get more chips in a hurry. Everyone's usually feeling the pinch, so even one blind steal can really help you out. Perhaps I need to calm down in this situation and it will improve my results, but this strikes me as the time for all-out aggression.

[Pokerscott]

#1 push
-you have to put in 500 to win 1600 (assuming you are called) T7s is likely not this big of a dog to the SB. Folding and you have 500 left and would need to get all in against 2 opponents to get the same chip position.

#2
Close but I probably push. Last chance for you to have any reasonable fold equity. If my stack hurts the BB I would be more likely to push. Also more likely if I hadn't pushed much recently.

#3
check and see a flop. You have a nice drawing hand and the SB could be trapping you. 800 can still steal if needed.

#4
Definite push. Decent chance you will win and if called still unlikely to be such a dog that pot odds don't cover it. AK AQ likely raise it up, so I wouldn't worry too much about those hands.

Pokerscott

[SuitedSixes]

FoldPushPushPush

[lastchance]

#1 I call. I'm pretty desperate for folding equity right now, and all my chips are going in on the flop regardless of the cards. I'm just trying to find ways to get SB to lay down their hand.

#2 Push.

#3 Check, all-in when it's checked to you, fold when it's bet to you and you got nothing.

#4 I dunno, this is pretty tough. Having an ace call would be bad. I like the check, all-in with any K or Q though. Think you could make a case for pushing.

[Pepsquad]

I'd appreciate further disussion on hand #4. Some posters that I respect on here are saying Push hand #4. Personally, I ADAMENTLY disagree, but this might be a leak in my own game as well. If you believe hand 4 easy an easy push, would you respond with your reasoning.

Here's my problem with pushing #4. We have 4 limpers to us in the BB and my guess is not much cumulative folding equity. With FOUR limpers I disagree with Yugoslavian, there is no way in hell KQ is the best hand. Two limpers? I LOVE the push. Four? What's wrong with seeing the flop and pushing K or Q high?

Pep.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

#3
check and see a flop. You have a nice drawing hand and the SB could be trapping you. 800 can still steal if needed.


[/ QUOTE ]

A while back Chrisv said to push with any two any time it's folded to the small blind, who completes, and the blinds are big. I was skeptical at first, but I've done this about 100 times and I have yet to be called a single time. Sure, once every 200 times he'll be trapping. Even then you might draw out on him, especially with JT.

I've had such good results I've expanded this to earlier stages as well. If SB completes, I raise to 4-5 bb with almost any two. Once again, I have yet to be called a single time. The VAST majority of the time SB has a marginal to bad hand and just wants a cheap look at the flop.

[Allinlife]

thanks for sharing your experience on that.

but I don't know if it's ever worth the risk of being called/missing flop in early stages to try stealing after SB completing.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd appreciate further disussion on hand #4. Some posters that I respect on here are saying Push hand #4. Personally, I ADAMENTLY disagree, but this might be a leak in my own game as well. If you believe hand 4 easy an easy push, would you respond with your reasoning.

Here's my problem with pushing #4. We have 4 limpers to us in the BB and my guess is not much cumulative folding equity. With FOUR limpers I disagree with Yugoslavian, there is no way in hell KQ is the best hand. Two limpers? I LOVE the push. Four? What's wrong with seeing the flop and pushing K or Q high?

Pep.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some questions for you:

What hands are being limped here?

How many chips are in play compared to your stack?

You have four opponents. You don't think *one* of them will hit some piece of the flop and call your push with K or Q high??

Yugoslav

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd appreciate further disussion on hand #4. Some posters that I respect on here are saying Push hand #4. Personally, I ADAMENTLY disagree, but this might be a leak in my own game as well. If you believe hand 4 easy an easy push, would you respond with your reasoning.


[/ QUOTE ]

With that many limpers, chances are you're up against multiple small pairs. The most likely response to a push is everyone folds. Chances are VERY slim that you'll get more than 2 callers. Your chances of winning against two small pairs aren't that much lower than winning against one. (~40% vs ~45%, depending on suits, denominations, etc.), but the profit goes up by 100%.

Sure, sometimes one of the limpers will be trapping, but c'est la vie.

[ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with seeing the flop and pushing K or Q high?


[/ QUOTE ]

You've given several potential small pairs free shots at busting you with trips.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

A while back Chrisv said to push with any two any time it's folded to the small blind, who completes, and the blinds are big.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a link for this?

I'm serious, btw.

Yugoslav
PM me if you want....whatever, I just want that link!

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for sharing your experience on that.

but I don't know if it's ever worth the risk of being called/missing flop in early stages to try stealing after SB completing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's just something I'm experimenting with. I can tell you I've done this approximately 20 times and have yet to be called once. Assuming you always raise to 4bb, and always lose if they call, you need them to fold > 2/3 of the time for this to be profitable. If they fold exacly 2/3 of the time, the probability of them folding 20 times in a row is .0003. Thus even my short run suggests that this is a very profitable move. Considering that you might still win even if called, it's even more profitable. I'm going to keep doing it for the time being.

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd appreciate further disussion on hand #4. Some posters that I respect on here are saying Push hand #4. Personally, I ADAMENTLY disagree, but this might be a leak in my own game as well. If you believe hand 4 easy an easy push, would you respond with your reasoning.

Here's my problem with pushing #4. We have 4 limpers to us in the BB and my guess is not much cumulative folding equity. With FOUR limpers I disagree with Yugoslavian, there is no way in hell KQ is the best hand. Two limpers? I LOVE the push. Four? What's wrong with seeing the flop and pushing K or Q high?

Pep.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some questions for you:

What hands are being limped here?

How many chips are in play compared to your stack?

You have four opponents. You don't think *one* of them will hit some piece of the flop and call your push with K or Q high??

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands limped? Vulnerable Aces and 99-22.

Regarding the 2nd question, I am COUNTING on them hitting a piece of the K-high or Q-high flop and calling my all-in when I have much the better of it. Yes?

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd appreciate further disussion on hand #4. Some posters that I respect on here are saying Push hand #4. Personally, I ADAMENTLY disagree, but this might be a leak in my own game as well. If you believe hand 4 easy an easy push, would you respond with your reasoning.


[/ QUOTE ]

With that many limpers, chances are you're up against multiple small pairs. The most likely response to a push is everyone folds. Chances are VERY slim that you'll get more than 2 callers. Your chances of winning against two small pairs aren't that much lower than winning against one. (~40% vs ~45%, depending on suits, denominations, etc.), but the profit goes up by 100%.

Sure, sometimes one of the limpers will be trapping, but c'est la vie.

[ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with seeing the flop and pushing K or Q high?


[/ QUOTE ]

You've given several potential small pairs free shots at busting you with trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Atticus, aren't you under-estimating some ace-high hands that might be limping here? AQ-A8?

Regarding your 2nd question, I'm okay with giving the mid-PP's a free flop to hit their set. If the odds of them catching their set is 7.5:1 then the odds of them hitting their set AND me catching a K or Q on the flop have to be even greater don't they? I'm okay with checking and pushing the KJ5 rainbow flop, and getting shown a set of 5's. Should I NOT be okay with this? I figure this easily offsets the times that I don't catch top pair and am still able to get away from this hand. Thoughts?

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

A while back Chrisv said to push with any two any time it's folded to the small blind, who completes, and the blinds are big.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a link for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

He has said it many times.
Here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=174 2339&Forum=All_Forums&Words=%2Bpush%20%2Bcomplete& Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1730795&Search=true&whe re=bodysub&Name=13718&daterange=1&newerval=1&newer type=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1742339) is one example.

Note that he only advocates doing this late. Doing it earlier is my own addition, and I have no idea what his opinion would be on it.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

A while back Chrisv said to push with any two any time it's folded to the small blind, who completes, and the blinds are big.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a link for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

He has said it many times.
Here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=174 2339&Forum=All_Forums&Words=%2Bpush%20%2Bcomplete& Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1730795&Search=true&whe re=bodysub&Name=13718&daterange=1&newerval=1&newer type=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1742339) is one example.

Note that he only advocates doing this late. Doing it earlier is my own addition, and I have no idea what his opinion would be on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably that it's not a great idea, /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Risk/reward and all considered.

Thanks for the link. I have a hard time finding ChrisV's advice since he's always on the tailend of a thread and his advice is not easily searched....

Yugoslav

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

Atticus, aren't you under-estimating some ace-high hands that might be limping here? AQ-A8?


[/ QUOTE ]

How likely is one of these hands to call your push? AQ might, and I admit you'd be in trouble there, but I don't see it limped very often.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm okay with checking and pushing the KJ5 rainbow flop, and getting shown a set of 5's. Should I NOT be okay with this? I figure this easily offsets the times that I don't catch top pair and am still able to get away from this hand. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying your play is terrible. It's probably marginally profitable. I just believe pushing PF is much more profitable. You cut down their chances to beat you, plus you'll likely profit more from a K-high flop than you would following your line, as you'll take 88's whole stack, as opposed to just collecting the limp bets.

[The Yugoslavian]

Atticus,

You better hope Raptor isn't at your table when you make this move with KQ..../images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Yugoslav
holla!

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

A while back Chrisv said to push with any two any time it's folded to the small blind, who completes, and the blinds are big.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a link for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Epilogue: I was just called for the first time ever. It was in a multi. I had 1800 chips, blinds were 200, I was on the BB with KQs. Sb completes (he has 6k chips), I push, SB calls and turns over --- 74s.

Of course the flop is 774 and I bust out, but honestly I think this is just further evidence that this is the correct play.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
Atticus,

You better hope Raptor isn't at your table when you make this move with KQ..../images/graemlins/grin.gif.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, I'd never do it if HE had limped. Heck, if he limps, I fold AA 'cause the best I'll get is a chop. Perhaps that's one more hidden benefit of his strategy, eh?

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Atticus, aren't you under-estimating some ace-high hands that might be limping here? AQ-A8?


[/ QUOTE ]

How likely is one of these hands to call your push? AQ might, and I admit you'd be in trouble there, but I don't see it limped very often.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm okay with checking and pushing the KJ5 rainbow flop, and getting shown a set of 5's. Should I NOT be okay with this? I figure this easily offsets the times that I don't catch top pair and am still able to get away from this hand. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying your play is terrible. It's probably marginally profitable. I just believe pushing PF is much more profitable. You cut down their chances to beat you, plus you'll likely profit more from a K-high flop than you would following your line, as you'll take 88's whole stack, as opposed to just collecting the limp bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you and the Yugoslavian might be right. The more I think about this, I'm really uncomfortable with the way I play marginally good hands behind several limpers with a medium-short stack in the later stages. But I do see calls by AJ-A9 in these situations - especially if they are in a solid chip-position. Would you push KJ here? AT? I think I'm just being too passive with my short-stacks in general. Could explain why my ITM is solid, but I'm consistently arriving to the final 3 in poor shape.

Pep.

[curtains]

ChrisV is right, the large majority of the time the SB limps, they are not slowplaying. Unless you know something about your opponent or have raised them many times in a row, it often makes sense to raise.

[The Yugoslavian]

KQ is a decent hand vs. Ax too, FWIW (we're assuming AK and AQ are raising here...unless raptor is in teh game). And there are all those dead chips in the pot from the players who *do* fold.

Yugoslav

[Travis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

#3
check and see a flop. You have a nice drawing hand and the SB could be trapping you. 800 can still steal if needed.


[/ QUOTE ]

A while back Chrisv said to push with any two any time it's folded to the small blind, who completes, and the blinds are big. I was skeptical at first, but I've done this about 100 times and I have yet to be called a single time. Sure, once every 200 times he'll be trapping. Even then you might draw out on him, especially with JT.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I've been trying this out as well though not on as formal a basis. What I've found interesting is that after you've pulled it once on someone, they'll still limp. My usual thought is that after the prior move they must be setting me up but when I limp again, they fold. Need more data points to tell for sure. Good pointer Atticus.

[Scuba Chuck]

Have you seen my post? What is a hand? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=186 1331&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)

Hand 1: What is the SB's stack?

Hand 2: What is the BB's stack?

Hand 3: What is UTG and UTG+1 stack? If those two stacks have you covered 2:1, I push here. TJ (especially sooooted) runs pretty good Hot and Cold. And there's a good probability that you'll get SB to fold (assuming you haven't done this before, or SB is not known as a tricky player). I would think this is slightly +$EV.

Hand 4: Check, and hope for the best.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy

[/ QUOTE ]

YOU ARE CRAZY

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you seen my post? What is a hand? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=186 1331&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)

Hand 1: What is the SB's stack?

Hand 2: What is the BB's stack?

Hand 3: What is UTG and UTG+1 stack? If those two stacks have you covered 2:1, I push here. TJ (especially sooooted) runs pretty good Hot and Cold. And there's a good probability that you'll get SB to fold (assuming you haven't done this before, or SB is not known as a tricky player). I would think this is slightly +$EV.

Hand 4: Check, and hope for the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, we've already gone over this a few times in this thread.

Also, I bet Zebra *has* read your post. I also imagine he too gets annoyed when posters leave out contextual evidence.

He's just in a rush on his quest for knowledge. Sure this is something SNGSocrates can understand if not identify with personally. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yugoslav

[ZebraAss]

Jesus christ! I am sorry I was playing poker with some friend. I will read all these posts and add any information that was lacking.

I am very sorry.

Zebra

[johnnybeef]

with number 1, the real issue is not this hand but the hand before it. almost all of the time that i have >5 bb as a small stack utg, i push regardless of my holding. #2 this one is difficult to determine without knowing how soon the blinds go up. #3 depending on the opponent i will usually push but if he has been raising a lot i will check and push on the flop if it is checked to me as a lot of times people will complete with a decent hand hoping that this will enspire you to bet for them. #4 is an easy push in just about any situation. you are a dog to 5 hands. a lot of these situations you are letting yourself get short stacked. when it is the mid stage of a tourney and i am utg or utg+1 (and utg has folded) with <4 bb i push regardless of my holding unless there is an extremely loose player at the table. this prevents me from being picked on when i am in the blinds. remember, at worst 2 live cards are only a 2:1 dog.

[bweiser8311962]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd appreciate further disussion on hand #4. Some posters that I respect on here are saying Push hand #4. Personally, I ADAMENTLY disagree, but this might be a leak in my own game as well. If you believe hand 4 easy an easy push, would you respond with your reasoning.

Here's my problem with pushing #4. We have 4 limpers to us in the BB and my guess is not much cumulative folding equity. With FOUR limpers I disagree with Yugoslavian, there is no way in hell KQ is the best hand. Two limpers? I LOVE the push. Four? What's wrong with seeing the flop and pushing K or Q high?

Pep.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I seem to lose a lot more often with A/x against K/Q or K/J than just about any other hand I get dealt. Especially shortstacked, when I have no choice but to push.

K/Q also adds the straight possibility that A/8 doesn't.

When people limp they want to see a cheap flop. Shortstacked, you might as well get all your chips in preflop.

Let's say someone loves to limp with 4/5 (hey, people have favorite hands). You push them off that and the flop comes K/5/4 and you got called by A/8. You've taken their call and probably tripled up. I'm just saying, I want to push the more marginal hands off, or make them really pay out the nose to call me.

[ZebraAss]

Thanks for all the posts. I am going to start a new thread to separate any confusion.

I want other players to be able see why one play is right or wrong without any confusion.


If this is totally unnecessary(or has already been done) please say so.


Thanks,

Zebra

[whynot?]

so, on hand 4 - i typically check. then since im an early actor after the flop i come out firing. if the flop is a bunch of rags it fits with the perception of the bb. if it hits me with k or q im playins as if i have the best. only concern is if the flop has an ace. logical?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd appreciate further disussion on hand #4. Some posters that I respect on here are saying Push hand #4. Personally, I ADAMENTLY disagree, but this might be a leak in my own game as well. If you believe hand 4 easy an easy push, would you respond with your reasoning.

Here's my problem with pushing #4. We have 4 limpers to us in the BB and my guess is not much cumulative folding equity. With FOUR limpers I disagree with Yugoslavian, there is no way in hell KQ is the best hand. Two limpers? I LOVE the push. Four? What's wrong with seeing the flop and pushing K or Q high?

Pep.

[/ QUOTE ]

dunno if this is addressed below, but...ill tell you why this push is great. (#4). Its not about best hand, but about behavior of the other players. U push...now is limper 1 going to call? With 3 more to act after him/her? no...not unless they were trapping...(highly unlikely at this stage). Apply the same logic to the rest and really all you are banking on is having a better holding then the last limper who probably has a very mediocre hand and only called bc with 2-3 limpers behind had little fear of being raised. Think of this as a elongated squeeze play on MANY opponents. It works!

p

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you seen my post? What is a hand? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=186 1331&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)

Hand 1: What is the SB's stack?

Hand 2: What is the BB's stack?

Hand 3: What is UTG and UTG+1 stack? If those two stacks have you covered 2:1, I push here. TJ (especially sooooted) runs pretty good Hot and Cold. And there's a good probability that you'll get SB to fold (assuming you haven't done this before, or SB is not known as a tricky player). I would think this is slightly +$EV.

Hand 4: Check, and hope for the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most of the hands are unclear here. I would choose my move based on what has happend on the last few hands. Have i been aggresive lately? Have my opponents been calling raises? Has there been lots of limping? If somebody that has been raising or folding suddenly starts limping it is time to wake up.
If not most of the hands are good for aggresion.

It depends /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]


You know, I've been trying this out as well though not on as formal a basis. What I've found interesting is that after you've pulled it once on someone, they'll still limp. My usual thought is that after the prior move they must be setting me up but when I limp again, they fold. Need more data points to tell for sure. Good pointer Atticus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like any play, it's best not to run it too many times against the same person. However, it's beautiful if you happen to catch a big hand next time around, and villain is convinced you're stealing. /images/graemlins/wink.gif