55 - An interesting hand

[pokerstudAA]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Position + many callers. I raise 55 from the button. I have made this raise with PP 88+ in the past. Should I raise 22+ in this situation? Comments.

Flop: (13 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

15 Small bets out there. 22:1 to hit a set right? Plus implied odds if I do. Loose call?

Turn: (8 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Bingo - I am such a fish.

River: (14 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Safe river to raise right? Definately still ahead?

Final Pot: 18 BB

[Entity]

I think your flop call is too loose. I also don't always raise with these preflop, but I don't think raising with them is a big deal. It is a bigger deal, though, if you raise with them preflop to tie yourself onto the pot so you can make loose flop calls.

You need to make up an extra 7.5SB when you hit on the turn to justify this flop call, so I think you're peeling a bit thin given the broadway nature of the board and possible redraws out there.

Rob

[Chris Daddy Cool]

preflop is fine, the flop is not however.

[Kailia Marie]

Hi Stud,

I don't like raising preflop if you're going to incorrectly call the flop as Entity and CDC have pointed out already.

/images/graemlins/heart.gifKailia

[MoodyA]

You need to discount your two outs to the possibility that someone floped a straight and your set might not be good, with the possibility of drawing dead this flop call is bad.

The position/value raise pre-flop is fine but as the others have said watch that leaking habbit

[pokerstudAA]

So Here is what I am getting...

Preflop: I am OK raising 4-5 limpers with small PP 22+ sometimes. I should always limp them behind this many limpers and sometimes raise to mix it up. I will raise 88+ here 85+ % of the time. Is this right?


Flop: I can see the possiblity that some one has the straight, a draw to the straight, or that someone with two pair would have a redraw to a boat. So 2 outs to a set of 5's suck. If you raise preflop and miss your set you should fold on a dirty flop like this. Definately a much too thin draw here to call the flop.

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (13 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

15 Small bets out there. 22:1 to hit a set right? Plus implied odds if I do. Loose call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. You're not getting enough for the times you hit your hand and a) don't get paid on the river or b) someone spikes a broadway straight on the river to beat you.

I don't mind the PF raise, but on the flop...&lt;Dante&gt; well, sometimes you've got to let those hard to reach chips go.&lt;/Dante&gt;

Regards,
-Brian

[ErrantNight]

horrible preflop.

horrible on the flop.

let me repeat that, because i feel it's important that you caught that:

horrible preflop.

horrible on the flop.

once more, for posterity:

horrible preflop.

horrible on the flop.

call, and fold.

from the turn on... you managed to raise your set twice! i'm so proud!

that you're even asking about raising the river means you're not just a fish, you're a big donk.

[ErrantNight]

btw, this isn't interesting.

this is getting lucky on the turn. i don't see how hitting a two outer is "interesting"

maybe you can enlighten me.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

horrible preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really disagree with you here.

Rob

[ErrantNight]

given that raising preflop cuts into your implied odds severely when you do hit... i'm inclined to say it's bad.

that you're not the only poster that i respect that seems ok with the preflop raise... care to elaborate?

[ErrantNight]

ok. i'm down to be disagreed with... tell me more /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pokerstudAA]

[ QUOTE ]
given that raising preflop cuts into your implied odds severely when you do hit... i'm inclined to say it's bad.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising might actually add to your implied odds. You are 8:1 to hit a set - so if 6+ limpers call you cannot be losing much if it is -EV.

With this many limpers if you hit your set you will likely tie them to the pot drawing at much worse hands. With 5-6 limpers 88+ has always been a raise for me. I tried it this time with a little power pair - apparently also acceptable. However, do not tie yourself to the pot if you do not hit your set.

This is also highly deceptive. No one will put you on your hand when you do hit.

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]
ok. i'm down to be disagreed with... tell me more /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You build a big pot, making it more likely that people will hang around and call your bets when you make your hand, even though they may be drawing nearly dead.

Furthermore, it increases the chance that you'll get checked to on the flop, giving you 4 cards with which to hit your set.

Regards,
-Brian

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
ok. i'm down to be disagreed with... tell me more /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
It's gonna get you 4 cards a semi-reasonable amount of the time, and will tie people on to the times you do flop a set. So that's a plus.

I don't think it's a great play but it doesn't cut your implied odds terribly, so when combined with all of the other semi-plusses it isn't bad at all.

However, when you are prone to call on the flop getting 16:1 or less, I think it's a pretty bad raise. Kinda like whether or not you should raise something like 98s or 87s in these situations.

Rob

[Chris Daddy Cool]

saying this is horrible preflop is horrible. at worst it costs a couple of cents and it is usually +EV.

but if hero is going to make this flop call then the preflop raise is indeed horrible because he's locking himself into his hand incorrectly.

[ErrantNight]

my apologies for my drunken overstatement... and it was at that... as i said, despite it, i'm very open to being wrong... and as you say, it definitely isn't a huge mistake... but what would be the advantage?

control on the board, and more disguise when you hit?

[ErrantNight]

raising, i thought pretty much by definition, cuts your implied odds in half...

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]
It's gonna get you 4 cards a semi-reasonable amount of the time, and will tie people on to the times you do flop a set. So that's a plus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe even moreso than we're giving credit for.

If we get that extra 4th card, it increases the chances of our hitting a set from 12.2% to 16.5%. That's a 25% increase -- non-trivial, if you ask me. (Of course, we won't always get checked to on the flop, so maybe it's just a 12% increase, if we conservatively estimate we'll get to check through half the time.)

In addition, the card that falls to make our set will often look pretty innocuous. So, it increases the chances that someone in EP will bet, thinking their middle pair is good.

All in all not a terrible play, if you've got 4 or 5 customers and you're on the button with a pocket pair.

Regards,
-Brian

[ErrantNight]

i'm much more inclined to raise s00ted connectors here to tie my opponents to the flop (conceivably giving me better drawing odds), whereas even with my raise preflop in large, multi-way flops, i feel i'm still looking to hit the flop to go forward in the hand...

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
raising, i thought pretty much by definition, cuts your implied odds in half...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if it causes people to make looser calls than they originally would have.

Does this apply at the Party 5/10? Meh, maybe, maybe not. It will encourage people to make looser calls though.

Also, the advantage of seeing 4 cards is slight, but not entirely irrelevant.

Rob

[mr pink]

errantnight,

i usually respect most everything you say. but you're really being a dick to the other poster, and it's not really necessary or called for here. we all need a little tough love sometimes when we make some bad mistakes, but you're just being mean spirited. he's asking for some help because he wasn't sure, you don't have to berate him for it.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
It's gonna get you 4 cards a semi-reasonable amount of the time, and will tie people on to the times you do flop a set. So that's a plus.

I don't think it's a great play but it doesn't cut your implied odds terribly, so when combined with all of the other semi-plusses it isn't bad at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't often do this anything lower than 88 or 77, but I agree that it's not horrible and I really like your straightforward explanation for why it is not.

[ QUOTE ]
However, when you are prone to call on the flop getting 16:1 or less, I think it's a pretty bad raise. Kinda like whether or not you should raise something like 98s or 87s in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah. The flop play is not inspiring.

[ErrantNight]

if i knew the flop was going to get checked to me so that i could check behind, and hit my set on the turn, have an EP lead out and trap the field for me to raise... i'd be more inclined to think that raising preflop was good...

since that doesn't happen much... i'm less inclined... although i see your arguments for doing so...

[ErrantNight]

i didn't necessarily think it's irrelevant... and yes, if it will cause people to stick around after the flop when they'd otherwise go home, sure... but i still think i'm making my money in these situations by hitting the flop... and i'm usually prepared to drop it there if i miss, whereas there's a greater likelihood of wanting to see the turn with a suited connector...

[pokerstudAA]

I knew he was wrong at "horrible preflop" and disregarded the rest as nonsense. Obviously people play poker differently, have diffent opinions, and give differing quality levels of advice.

Anyways - I got tough skin.....I try to post hands that I f-ed up somewhere or do not understand how to play. Currently I am butchering the small pocket pairs left and right.

[ErrantNight]

you're right, i was too harsh... and i apologize for being a dick...

and it seems that this post has at least sparked the interesting (for me) discussion about the merits of raising small pocket pairs (which i'm usually pretty aggressive with) after a field of limpers from the button.

[Entity]

Hey Errant,

Check this one out. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=smallholdem&amp;Number=956229)

That's the post that got me turned on to this idea, though I first read it in HEPFAP. I don't do it all the time, but I think it's ok when I'm feeling frisky. Like raising T9s UTG.

Rob

[ErrantNight]

i don't blame you for disregarding the rest... but i have yet to be convinced that raising the flop is better than calling, and your flop call was bad.

[ErrantNight]

i could do with a revisit to HEPFAP i feel... it's been a while... cheers

[mr pink]

its cool man, it's just easier to keep things civil around here though.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't blame you for disregarding the rest... but i have yet to be convinced that raising the flop is better than calling, and your flop call was bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Errant,

It isn't necessarily better. It isn't necessarily worse. It's something that we do from time to time, and especially in games where people like to call in big pots, makes your profit go up when you hit.

See what I mean? Would you raise 87s every single time in this situation? Why? Why not? Would you ever do it? Mixing up our play is fun. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[ErrantNight]

thanks... i didn't know my preflop raise % could get much higher... looks like it shall...

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks... i didn't know my preflop raise % could get much higher... looks like it shall...

[/ QUOTE ]

How high?

When I'm in good games, I'm around 21/13. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[ErrantNight]

yeah yeah, i completely understand the theory behind it... and i don't "always" do anything... i was just looking for some discussion as to the advantages of raising in this particular spot since it wasn't described as a variant scenario... but i was way, way off in describing it as horrible. i couldn't have been more wrong. had i even stopped to think for a moment, i could have discerned that, barring any of this discussion. further, it appears that not only was it not horrible, but an argument could be made that it was preferable here...

[ErrantNight]

about 21-22/11-12

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
thanks... i didn't know my preflop raise % could get much higher... looks like it shall...

[/ QUOTE ]

How high?

When I'm in good games, I'm around 21/13. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

What a useless LAG. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ErrantNight]

at 2/4 a solid 23/13

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
at 2/4 a solid 23/13

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played enough 2/4 full ring to really say. I don't know how much higher I can get though, given that I'm 24/16 in 6max.

Rob