After my first 600 SnG 8-tabling...

[Zelcious]

at party 10+1

64 first
81 second
79 third

Profit 610$
ROI 9%
ITM 37%

Maybe it's too small sample but still... the results makes me wanna hang myself. It would be ok if I felt that I had problems with the move from 4-table to 8-table but I rarly feel stressed. The worst is that this bad period has made me play less and less. Maybe there is something wrong with my headsup game, I used to have most first but now I have more seconds and thirds. Sorry, I will just shut up and continue playing. Will probably move up to 20+2 and test my luck there.

[raptor517]

meh, 9% isnt bad, you shouldnt worry too much about that. variance can last a long time. trust me. in a month of 8 tabling you will likely get in at LEAST 1k sngs. 2k if u play a lot. if i tried real hard i could get in 3500 - 4k prolly. you will see stretches of 500 breaking even or even being down, its perfectly normal. take a shot at those 22s, play another 500, then holla at me with how u doin. i like to hear bout the other 8 tablers /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[citanul]

What's your ROI 4 tabling? How about 2 tabling?
If you don't know those offhand, what's your ROI for all data prior to starting 8 tabling?

citanul

[beeyjay]

Ive also had problems placing first while 8 tabling. I think I was playing with an attitude that getting ITM was good enough and then concentrating on getting there on other tables as well and not paying attn enough to heads up matches. My seconds far outweigh my firsts and thirds which is just far from ideal when trying to maximize ROI. You may suffer from this same problem.

I think its important to realize first makes the same amount over 2nd as 3rd over 4th and possibly make mental adjustments to the way you view a "successful" game. So many times I view it as a victory to get into the money which just isnt good enough.

[Voltron87]

How were your results 4 tabling? I would play 500 or so 4 tabling and see where that leaves you. I find that when you 4 or 8 table you can pay attention to everything and not miss hands, but you do miss a lot of details. So if you have any results from 2-4 tabling they could help, but I definitely think 8 tabling could be the cause of your troubles.

[Zelcious]

4-table at the 20+2, 29%
4-table at the 30+3, 20%
But I feel that the last one is really biased downwards by a terrible bad run of luck.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Profit 610$
ROI 9%
ITM 37%

[/ QUOTE ]

Of all these numbers, your ITM numbers are most significant to me. It's tough to have a solid ROI when your ITM is below 40%. I think there's a lot more learning to be done on bubble play before returning to 8 tables. I'd return to 2 or 4 tables. Focus on increasing your ITM percentages as a short term goal.

[viennagreen]

this advice is no good. sorry, but it just sucks.

i 8-table and there isn't a single limit in which i have a ITM% of greater than 40%. yet, i have a more than adequate ROI.

the problem in his results is his finish distributions. he should have 1sts > 2nds > 3rds .

a person who concentrates on ITM will end up with a sucky distribution, with fewer 1sts than necessary for a good ROI.

his results may just be short term variance, but may also be an indication of poor bubble play.. and NOT poor as in "try to get in the money more"--- that's exactly opposite of what he should do... poor as in not aggressive enough on the bubble.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
his results may just be short term variance,

[/ QUOTE ]

In terms of ITM, I think that the above statement is BS. I seriously doubt a sample of over 500 is not sufficient enough to get a good handle on what your ITM % is longer term.

[ QUOTE ]
a person who concentrates on ITM will end up with a sucky distribution, with fewer 1sts than necessary for a good ROI

[/ QUOTE ]

There might be some truth to this statement. That's why I suggested "short term." FWIW, for the month of February, I focused on increasing my ITM %. I ended the month with the following stats (I'm quoting the $33s only)

254 SNGs
44.9% ITM
26.7% ROI

Finish Distribution:
1st 12.2% 31
2nd 13.0% 33
3rd 19.7% 50

This finish distribution really sucks, IMO. But the 26.7% ROI is a little "In your Face." (guess I got a little Citanul in me).

This month, I will be focusing far more on achieving a higher First place finish distribution. FWIW, I learned a lot about my play by focusing on ITM %.

[ QUOTE ]
but may also be an indication of poor bubble play.. and NOT poor as in "try to get in the money more"--- that's exactly opposite of what he should do... poor as in not aggressive enough on the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least we do agree here.

[viennagreen]

okay, so i guess you can have a good ROI with a sucky distribution... it really is a sucky distribution though-- what limit is this that? will you put up your 4th place finishes as an added bit of info?

i don't have any idea of whether 500 SNGs gives an accurate reflection of long-term ITM or not (my last reply to you was the first i had even checked my ITMs in over 3000 SNGs). i DO KNOW that ROI can fluctuate greatly in a 500 SNG block. and when i speak of short-term variance, ROI is what i'm speaking of.

no one should care about ITM. ITM doesn't mean anything-- it is not a good statistic at all to judge yourself by, since it doesn't reflect $$$ success. the OP is disappointed by his bottom line--- total earn--- reflected by his ROI... and if he had the same ITM (or even lower) with a better distribution, he would have a better ROI, and possibly wouldn't have bothered posting

but, your results obviously throw my advice of "better results through better distribution" into question. i haven't actually ever seen a distribution like yours with that high of an ROI posted here before.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
what limit is this that?

[/ QUOTE ]

As originally stated, these are my stats from my $33 tables only.

[ QUOTE ]
will you put up your 4th place finishes as an added bit of info?

[/ QUOTE ]

1st 12.2% 31
2nd 13.0% 33
3rd 19.7% 50
4th 9.4% 24

[ QUOTE ]
i DO KNOW that ROI can fluctuate greatly in a 500 SNG block. and when i speak of short-term variance, ROI is what i'm speaking of.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but that's not what you said, nor did you insinuate.

[ QUOTE ]
but, your results obviously throw my advice of "better results through better distribution" into question. i haven't actually ever seen a distribution like yours with that high of an ROI posted here before.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do think you can learn a lot from just a sample of say a couple hundred (which is two weeks for me). Let me get to the point guys. IMO, one of your tertiary objectives is to have an ITM percentage greater than 40%

[citanul]

Man, I wish I could keep my ITM around 40%... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

citanul

[Myst]

IMHO, that ROI is WAY too small for you to have at the $10+1 without having a leak in your game.

[lorinda]

i have a more than adequate ROI.

When I meet someone with an ROI of over 82% I will change my view on coming third.

Lori

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Man, I wish I could keep my ITM around 40%...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my opinion for those working on the $33s on down. I don't have any opinion on the $55s and up.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Man, I wish I could keep my ITM around 40%...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my opinion for those working on the $33s on down. I don't have any opinion on the $55s and up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Scuba are you 4tabling the 55s now? I saw your evil twin Scuba_Chuk on them the other day and was wondering if that was you.

[raptor517]

if you have a 40% long term roi in the 55s and up you are awesome, and i wish i could be as good as you. really, 40% is amazing at 55+

[ZeeJustin]

I don't think anyone playing 10+1's should be 8 tabling.

Regardless of how it affects ROI, the simple truth is that you will learn how to play poker slower if you are playing that many tables. Your hourly wage will increase faster by improving your poker skills.

Knowing when to go beyond 4 tables depends on where you want to go in poker. But unless you want to play 10+1's for a long time to come, I highly recommend refining your 4-tabling skills before moving to 8 tables.

I am known for playing tons of tables. I can tell you from personal experience that I really regret going from 4-8 tables so early in my career. There was an extended period of time where I was learning almost nothing about the game as a direct result.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
if you have a 40% long term roi in the 55s and up you are awesome, and i wish i could be as good as you. really, 40% is amazing at 55+

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, my comments are only related to the $33s down. FWIW, in my research, I've read comments from Eastbay that your objective is 40% ITM. Something I've always kept in the back of my mind.

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Scuba are you 4tabling the 55s now? I saw your evil twin Scuba_Chuk on them the other day and was wondering if that was you.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am dabbling there a little bit. The $55s have a much different early game. I don't have any opinions on those tables yet.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Again, my comments are only related to the $33s down. FWIW, in my research, I've read comments from Eastbay that your objective is 40% ITM. Something I've always kept in the back of my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eastbay doesn't 8 table them relentlessly and start them up as soon as he busts.

At least, he's always claimed to play 4 or fewer.

Yugoslav

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Eastbay doesn't 8 table them relentlessly and start them up as soon as he busts.

At least, he's always claimed to play 4 or fewer.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good point. I only 4 table. But it doesn't change my opinion on the intended results.

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
this advice is no good. sorry, but it just sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

[raptor517]

zj makes a very good point here. while 8 tabling you have very little time to observe and learn to help improve your skills. you have to focus most of your attention on the games. granted, i post on 2+2, watch movies, get up to make food, etc..

anyways, i dont think i learned a single thing about my game last month while playing a bajillion sngs except that i can have a terrible downswing and a terrible streak of breaking even. and the way i learned to cope was to not play anymore.. ok, that lasted 2 days, and i had to force myself on both days not to log on and play the 5-10 NL cuz they were so terrible.. but still.

i dont really know what im talking about, kinda rambling.. anyways, i agree that no one should be playing 8 tables of 10+1s. play 4, soak up info, and move up to the 22s. keep soaking, and head to the 33s. play a bajillion of those 4 tabling, then try 6. finally make your way up to 8. you will find your results to be much stronger i would imagine. holla

[raptor517]

40% is a definitive goal at the 55s. not just anyone could get there, and i would be very impressed to see more than a few people post long term itm of over 40%. for the record, over a bajillion 55s, 8 tabling, i have a 38.9% itm. holla

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
this advice is no good. sorry, but it just sucks.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still thinking about my advice. I think it's kind of like approaching each hand with a different attitude. In general, I think most here approach each bubble (or 5 handed ) hand as, "Do I think this hand is a good push here?" Rather, I'm suggesting, "What are the reasons for me to fold this hand?" Just this subtle difference might lead to more ITM finishes.

[Zelcious]

My own thinking....

[Zelcious]

I moved from 4-tabling the 30+3 with good profit to 8-tabling 10+1 with intention of moving up as soon as I felt comfortable with 8 tables.

[1C5]

Why do people jump from 4 to 8 tables? Why not go from 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 8. Seems to make more sense to me.

[Zelcious]

Because when I bought my second monitor I wanted to try 8-table just once. So I fired up eight 5+1 thinking that I would only loose 48$ in the extreme case of loosing all eight. I won a few bucks on my first set and played another one. For 10 successive sets I didn't have a single negative one. So I moved up to 10+1 and here I am.

[Scuba Chuck]

For me, my ITM % is about 45%. My 4th place results on average (longer than just Feb) are about 15%. That's means more than half the time, for every time I four table, I'm on the bubble on at least half of the tables.

To the point, when I am on the bubble, or ITM on ALL 4 tables at one time, it requires a lot of my attention to give each hand the time it deserves. I still find these periods a challenge. This situation leads me to believe it doesn't make sense for me to move up to 8 tables. I know that I am still making mistakes. Plus, I am still always studying FE, so I want to be sure I'm going through the entire thought process to help me make the correct decision. I don't look at my cards and make a decision guys. Once again, it's much more than that. Once I begin to find myself making multiple good decisions in this scenario, I might consider increasing tables.

Another thing that I think about. I estimate over the last 3 months, I've played about 150,000 SNG hands. I still have not played enough hands, in enough different situations to make decisions second nature to me. Guys, an important part of the learning process is to see hands over and over and over again.

This discussion reminds me of Magnolia's 'Roi is overrated' thread. What's the point of 8 tabling at this point? If you're still asking for advice, 8 tabling should absolutely not be part of your process. And I think a lot of us should take ZeeJustin's advice to heart. 8 tabling is a roadblock to learning. Learning increases $/hr by increasing your skill/knowledge. I give advice, and I am not willing to 8 table for I know that I will not benefit in the longer term.

[Maulik]

This thread deserves a bump and here it is.