Dumbest attempted angleshot ever at Hollywood Park [Archive]

ShawnHoo

03-07-2005, 07:50 PM

Excellent 15/30 Saturday night. Two players are involved in this particular hand.

Player 1 checks, player 2 bets the river, player 1 calls.

Player 2 shows a 6 in his hand, which matches a 6 on the board. Player 1 says, "That's good, take it," and mucks his hand. Player 2 then mucks his hand.

At this point, Player 1 goes crazy and starts jammering loudly about how the pot now belongs to him because you have to show both cards to win. The floorman, who happened to be standing behind us as the action was going on, made the correct ruling in about 2 seconds.

Also, I hate to say it, but I've noticed that these dumb "let's rely on the floorman to bail us out" angleshots tend to come from one specific group, and this was no exception.

Luv2DriveTT

03-07-2005, 08:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I hate to say it, but I've noticed that these dumb "let's rely on the floorman to bail us out" angleshots tend to come from one specific group, and this was no exception.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what specific group would that be?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

ShawnHoo

03-07-2005, 08:11 PM

Old and black.

I'm young and white, BTW.

Siegmund

03-07-2005, 08:13 PM

Player 1 mucked his hand. That pretty much ends a claim to the pot, last I checked.

You didn't say what the floorman's actual ruling was. I am curious now. I can see either of two things happening. Did he award the pot to player 2 since the obvious intention was that player 1 conceded to him? Or did he rule it a dead hand and everyone take back their money since no hand was properly shown?

ShawnHoo

03-07-2005, 08:15 PM

Player 2 won the pot.

Asufiji2004

03-07-2005, 08:25 PM

At the moment he said "that's good take it", the pot belongs to the other man regardless of what he had. If you say "you win" or "that's good", you lose.

Luv2DriveTT

03-07-2005, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Old and black.

I'm young and white, BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was obvious you are white, and I am insulted by your statement. Crawl back into you hole until you learn that the color of a persons skin doesn't make you better than anyone else. There is no room for biggotry here at 2+2, we discuss poker not how a persons race make him or her more likely to shoot an angle.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

stabn

03-07-2005, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At the moment he said "that's good take it", the pot belongs to the other man regardless of what he had. If you say "you win" or "that's good", you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he looked back at his cards, realized the guys kicker didn't play, and then flipped up his cards, that wouldn't be the case.

Cards speak.

stabn

zuluking

03-07-2005, 08:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Old and black.

I'm young and white, BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was obvious you are white, and I am insulted by your statement. Crawl back into you hole until you learn that the color of a persons skin doesn't make you better than anyone else. There is no room for biggotry here at 2+2, we discuss poker not how a persons race make him or her more likely to shoot an angle.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Just put him on ignore, he's not worth the time.

Chaos81

03-07-2005, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It was obvious you are white, and I am insulted by your statement. Crawl back into you hole until you learn that the color of a persons skin doesn't make you better than anyone else. There is no room for biggotry here at 2+2, we discuss poker not how a persons race make him or her more likely to shoot an angle.

[/ QUOTE ]
I concur.

ShawnHoo

03-07-2005, 08:48 PM

I certainly don't think the color of my skin makes me better/worse than anyone else. However, my not having to rely on perceived technicalities to win pots does.

I discussed this incident (away from the table) with a local pro who is black and was in the game with me. He was actually somewhat embarrassed by it and says he sees it all the time, FWIW.

I'll crawl back into my cave now.

DrewOnTilt

03-07-2005, 11:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Old and black.

I'm young and white, BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is hands down and beyond any doubt the stupidest thing that I have ever read.

Seriously, are you just trying to get flamed or start some kind of an argument? Up until today, I respected and was willing to read the opinions of everyone here on 2+2. That is no longer the case, and you are the first member of my Ignore list. Congratulations.

ThinkQuick

03-08-2005, 12:32 AM

Well that's a really dumb angleshoot.
At our casinos if you give misinformation about your hand that causes someone else to fold, your hand is dead.

Additionally though, I hope your second comment is a [censored] joke because you know that it can't be true.

random

03-08-2005, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He was actually somewhat embarrassed by it

[/ QUOTE ] He's an idiot, too.

JohnnyHumongous

03-08-2005, 02:59 AM

It's funny how intolerant you are of others' statements, the very sort of free speech which is protected by the constitution.

random

03-08-2005, 03:04 AM

What the hell are you talking about?

Edit: It is obvious what you are saying, but I can't figure out why you would say it. What does free speech have to do with an internet message board? He can say whatever he wants (he really can't on a private board), but people don't have to listen. It's not like this tard is saying anything worthy of an audience.

What's so "funny"? Usually when people say that someone has contradicted himself or there's some irony somewhere.

JohnnyHumongous

03-08-2005, 03:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell are you talking about?

Edit: It is obvious what you are saying, but I can't figure out why you would say it. What does free speech have to do with an internet message board? He can say whatever he wants (he really can't on a private board), but people don't have to listen. It's not like this tard is saying anything worthy of an audience.

What's so "funny"? Usually when people say that someone has contradicted himself or there's some irony somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually indifferent to the statement made by the OP. I have no context by which to agree or disagree with his statement because I've never been involved in such an angleshoot. I just find it hilarious how huffy everyone gets in response. Like it's their obligation to be the morality police. And ironically, these 'tolerance promoters' are the least tolerant people in the world, when it comes to considering various points of view. Making a point to tell the world how they put this guy on their ignore list... I guess they can feel smug and self-righteous now, with their hands over their ears.

mikeyvegas

03-08-2005, 03:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What the hell are you talking about?

Edit: It is obvious what you are saying, but I can't figure out why you would say it. What does free speech have to do with an internet message board? He can say whatever he wants (he really can't on a private board), but people don't have to listen. It's not like this tard is saying anything worthy of an audience.

What's so "funny"? Usually when people say that someone has contradicted himself or there's some irony somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually indifferent to the statement made by the OP. I have no context by which to agree or disagree with his statement because I've never been involved in such an angleshoot. I just find it hilarious how huffy everyone gets in response. Like it's their obligation to be the morality police. And ironically, these 'tolerance promoters' are the least tolerant people in the world, when it comes to considering various points of view. Making a point to tell the world how they put this guy on their ignore list... I guess they can feel smug and self-righteous now, with their hands over their ears.

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur.

ShawnHoo

03-08-2005, 05:52 AM

Let's clear up a few things.

I meant no offense towards any particular 2+2er in my original post.

Hollywood Park, as those of you who live in LA know, is located in Inglewood in a predominantly black neighborhood. The top section has a higher proportion of black players, in my opinion, than other casinos in LA (and there are several other casinos in town).

I play at said casino regularly.

I tend to pay keen attention to what takes place when I'm not in a hand. (See the "tells" post on this board.) I make observations and act accordingly based on that information, and continue to do so until I have reason to do otherwise. Some of those observations can be non-PC. If they can make me money, I'll use them; if they're only exceptional cases, then I won't. I'm not out to heal the world or make political connections when I play cards, so I could care less.

I have noticed other members of this particular group attempting similar bizarre angle shots. Obviously, people aren't getting together and organizing some big conspiracy. But when I saw this angle happen, I instantly recalled several other similar situations in the last several months. (For example, a player was contemplating a call and threw his cards at those of the other player. When his hand touched the other player's, he started going on about how his opponent's hand had to be ruled dead.)

A person who had no particular reason to make a similar observation to mine did so.

I was moved to a different table later that night and another player was talking about how he caught two Asian players colluding the night before. (This person was not Asian.) He said that he has noticed this happen several times before at Commerce -- always with Asian players. Is his a racist comment? Does he hate Asians? If he plays more carefully in certain situations because of what he noticed, should we call him names?

TheMetetron

03-08-2005, 07:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is his a racist comment? Does he hate Asians?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and probably.

Nilbud

03-08-2005, 09:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hollywood Park, as those of you who live in LA know, is located in Inglewood in a predominantly black neighborhood. The top section has a higher proportion of black players, in my opinion, than other casinos in LA (and there are several other casinos in town).

[/ QUOTE ]

To relate it directly to poker, I think your sample size is too small to make these sorts of judgements. I am not convinced that you are a rampaging racist, but I think your logic is flawed.

If there is a higher percentage of black players at this casino, wouldn't it be more likely that all the angle shooting you've witnessed just happened to be black players because the odds are better?

Or, looking at it from a different angle, how are you going to use this "tell" to make more money? Are you going to start avoiding, or getting up from, tables that have black players at them? I submit that, even if your "tell" was correct, you would lose more than you would gain trying to avoid the angle-shooting.

So, basically, you're theory is most likely complete bollocks, and you've stirred up a hornets nest...definitely -EV.

Michael Davis

03-08-2005, 09:08 AM

Good post. I think I have a bigger problem with the claim that the black pro was "embarrassed" about the hand. Unless he specifically said embarrassed, I think that's just a horrible misread, and, while not overtly racist, is symptomatic of the type of racism Sklansky brings up in PG&L.

-Michael

steamboatin

03-08-2005, 09:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Let's clear up a few things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay lets try

[ QUOTE ]
I meant no offense towards any particular 2+2er in my original post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Racist comments are offensive, PERIOD. No if, ands, or buts. If you don't want to offend, don't make racists statements.

[ QUOTE ]
Hollywood Park, as those of you who live in LA know, is located in Inglewood in a predominantly black neighborhood. The top section has a higher proportion of black players, in my opinion, than other casinos in LA (and there are several other casinos in town).

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't it give you a clue that you even notice how many black people are at the table? If you didn't have an issue, you wouldn't notice or care.

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to pay keen attention to what takes place when I'm not in a hand. (See the "tells" post on this board.)

[/ QUOTE ]
You tells post was worthless crap, its just that everyone was too polite to tell you. Unless you play with the same players on a regular basis, TELLS have very little value.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not out to heal the world or make political connections when I play cards, so I could care less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that part about you could care less but I don't believe it is only at the poker table.

[ QUOTE ]
(This person was not Asian.) He said that he has noticed this happen several times before at Commerce -- always with Asian players. Is his a racist comment? Does he hate Asians? If he plays more carefully in certain situations because of what he noticed, should we call him names?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is a racial comment.

He may not hate Asians but I believe He doesn't trust Asians and when you prejudge someone based upon race, that is prejudice.

If he plays more carefully, then no, but if He posts it on an Internet message board then, yes, I would call him names. I doubt that you will understand the difference, but you and He were having a discussion about players based on race. He wasn't just playing careful with his mouth shut, He was talking about poker players based upon race.

This reply might seem harsh but I was young and white once and have spent most of my adult life trying to unlearn all this useless racist bullshit. So I believe I have the moral authority to speak on this matter.

You are wrong, your post is wrong and if you ever grow up and become emotionally mature, you will understand.

Luv2DriveTT

03-08-2005, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny how intolerant you are of others' statements, the very sort of free speech which is protected by the constitution.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a private forum, you have no free speach protection here. You can be censored at any time by the moderators.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

Luv2DriveTT

03-08-2005, 09:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is a racial comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steamboat:

Although I agree with you in principal, and I applaud your sense of morality, I never thought his statement was racist. I do however think he has proven himself to be a bigot. Racist is a very strong word in my "language", its something I will not easily use without care. As an example Archie Bunker was a bigot, not a racist. To me racism starts when seperatisim is involved. Stereotyping of an individual due to race is bigoted.

Feel free to discuss, perhaps there may be something redeeming from this thread after all.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

steamboatin

03-08-2005, 10:15 AM

I tend to use the terms interchangeably. If I used the wrong term, I appologize, The OP is free to think what he wants, but posting it here is wrong and his replies trying to justify his OP are also in error.

At one time, I thought just like the OP, That is how I was raised and I didn't know any better. I probably tend to overreact in these situations.

A-Baum

03-08-2005, 10:29 AM

Holy crap what a bunch of uptight spring-loaded a-holes we have here. You guys are so quick to jump all over this guy because he brought race into the matter.

And whoever posted that this guy's a racist/bigot because he's aware of the color of skin of the players at his table, you sir are a jackass. Don't give me this "I don't see skin color" crap because every single person here notices because we have eyes and have the phisiological ability to differentiate between different colors, especially contrasting colors like white and dark. And if you don't notice the color of skin of people at your table, then I'd LOVE to play at your table because that's probably not the only thing you're not seeing.

And for the record, I notice skin color, ethnicity, age, weight, and the way people hold themselves in general even before they sit down at my table. **IN MY EXPERIENCE**, each ethnicity seems to have its own style of play. Now before you wishful Utopians get all bent out of shape and reach for the REPLY button, obviously not every member of each ethnicity plays a certain way, but generally speaking their play leans a certain way. I go with that "stereotype" until they prove me otherwise at the table. I'm sure I'm not the only one. And there's nothing wrong with it. People of different ethnicities and races have some different phisiological traits, that's a scientific FACT.

The original poster didn't say anything along the lines of "damn blacks trying to angle shoot again". He was simply pointing out that in his experience an overwhelming number of people at his casino who angle shoot are black. So what. Put a tourniquet on your bleeding heart and quit screaming racism every time the color of skin is even mentioned.

theted

03-08-2005, 10:36 AM

Being from the south I hear racist comments all the time. A lot of times if a person is referred to as "black", "asian" or "mexican" - whatever, it is 75% of the time, IMO, just a reference to the person, and not a sterotypical or degrading comment about their race. Somebody might describe me as the "short, fat, bald guy" - because, I am. Should I be able to be offended by that? YES. Can I with the double standard in place today where racism is concerned? NO. You can use these references about me and the guy next to me wouldn't think I should be offended. If I was black and they said the "fat black guy", calling me fat is ok, calling me black is wrong. Before you say I can go on a diet you are born black, that is just an example, because I am short and bald also and that is how I was born. ( For the record, I am not bothered by these comments about my physical appearance.)

I have been in games where I have said afterwards that "those 2 college punks were playing together". Am I speaking down on college students? No. Am I classifying them in a certain demographic? Yes.

Yes. I think the poster should have rethought what he said before he posted and he did cross the line but people are too sensitive to take things out of context. I see no one complaining that is was OLD black men he was referring to. Where is the AARP when you need them?

A-Baum

03-08-2005, 10:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]

At one time, I thought just like the OP, That is how I was raised and I didn't know any better. I probably tend to overreact in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steamboat this is a very interesting statement. This is a completely different discussion for another day, but usually kids start out with the idealistic mindset and look down on any kind of racism or separatism. It's usually when they get older and see more of the world and interact with more of the population that they tend to change their views. Strange yours was opposite. Interesting.

otnemem

03-08-2005, 10:50 AM

I totally agree. I find it interesting that NOT ONE offended party on here mentioned that he was discriminating by age. It all comes down to race... Nobody was like, "I'm ignoring you, because I have a grandfather, and I am just so offended that you would label him, totally indiscriminately, as a cheat. I am going to ignore you, sir, because your statements about the elderly are just so out of line." No, instead your entire judgement of his character comes down to one word - black. You [censored] hypocrites.

dlk9s

03-08-2005, 10:54 AM

To get back to the original post, I have never understood why people even screw around with not showing their cards if they have the winning hand. Just flip them over and let the dealer give you the pot. Big deal - you give away a little information. In the meantime, you don't have to worry about losing a bunch of money on a technicality.

Sometimes people try to hard to be clever.

Derek in NYC

03-08-2005, 10:57 AM

Mike Caro writes about racial steroetypes in the first chapter of his book on tells. W/r/t asians (I think Caro says "orientals" actually, but whatever), Caro says asians are either highly skill oriented, or highly luck oriented. W/r/t blacks, Caro says blacks often play poker to socialize and have fun, rather than to win the money. In my experience, I have found both of these observations to be true.

steamboatin

03-08-2005, 12:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And whoever posted that this guy's a racist/bigot because he's aware of the color of skin of the players at his table, you sir are a jackass. Don't give me this "I don't see skin color" crap because every single person here notices because we have eyes and have the phisiological ability to differentiate between different colors, especially contrasting colors like white and dark. And if you don't notice the color of skin of people at your table, then I'd LOVE to play at your table because that's probably not the only thing you're not seeing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be me and if you can't understand the difference between noticing something and posting it on the DAMN INTERNET!!!, then I want to be at your table. I'll be the Jackass in the grey tweed hat with all your chips.

CountDuckula

03-08-2005, 12:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny how intolerant you are of others' statements, the very sort of free speech which is protected by the constitution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please note that objections to others' statements are a form of free speech just as much protected by the Constitution as the original statements themselves. The Constitution doesn't say you can't criticize someone for exercising the right to free speech; it merely says that Congress (and, by extension, any governmental body in the US) may not restrict free speech by law. Yelling about free speech when someone objects to someone else's remarks is utterly idiotic.

-Mike

Avatar of Wine

03-08-2005, 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
People of different ethnicities and races have some different phisiological traits, that's a scientific FACT.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a 'physiological' sense, this is partially correct with regard to ethnicity - for instance, hair samples can be identified for ethnicity.

Make sure to limit this statement, though - we don't want to muddy an already muddled thread with views on elongated Achilles' tendons, Phrenology and other pseudo-scientific, pseudo-bigoted crap.

coolhandkuhn

03-08-2005, 12:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That would be me and if you can't understand the difference between noticing something and posting it on the DAMN INTERNET!!!, then I want to be at your table. I'll be the Jackass in the grey tweed hat with all your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense meant here, sir, but I've read of your struggles at the 5/10 - 10/20 games at Caesar's Indiana, and I have to say that if you struggle at those games, you might want to rethink the bravado with which you say you'll have all of anyone's chips, as it makes you seem like a blowhard. Disagree with the original posting all you want, just don't take it to such a level as to make others think less of all your comments based on this one ludicrous statement (if you want to be taken seriously, that is). Just some food for thought.

otnemem

03-08-2005, 02:31 PM

What I've learned from this post: Make a mental observation of a social pattern you've noticed - free-thinker. Voice this observation meekly and inobtrusively - bigot.

Here's a judgemental response - steamboatin is a falsely enlightened douchebag. I'm not saying I agree that old black men are generally shooting angles, but I can guarantee that there would be absolutely no discussion whatsoever had he said old white men are always shooting angles. You know why? Because the far left feels the need to infantalize African Americans, and treat them as if they can't function without the interference of the "sympathizing" white man. I won't really get into that for fear of being labeled a racist myself, but you really should stop perpetuating this stupid notion that we're all the same, and differences between cultures should never be highlighted.

andyfox

03-08-2005, 02:48 PM

ShawnHoo,

What I've noticed is that people like to notice when somebody who is of a different race or gender does something and then impute that to something inherent in the race or gender. My father will not say anything about a hundred bad men drivers, but if one woman does something about which he disapproves, he goes off about those damn women drivers. Most likely whites do lots of things that are bad at the poker table, but you don't notice it. You've managed to notice that there are, in your opinion, more blacks at Hollywood Park than in other L.A. area casinos, so you're noticing more angling shooting among blacks. Ditto for the guy re Asians at Commerce.

I'm and old white guy who plays mostly at Commerce. Most of the trouble-making angle-shooting jerks are white. So what? It's a small sample of people and to form conclusions based on race is wrong.

What are the details of the "several" colluding Asians your friend has noticed at Commerce?

andyfox

03-08-2005, 03:00 PM

Of course everybody sees skin color. What is objectionable is not that, but that the original poster decided that "bizarre" angle shooting was prevalent among old black men. To assume a pattern on the basis of one or two incidents is indeed the essence of racism: imputing an inherent flaw in a race because of the actions of a few members of that race.

As for the sterotypes you assume, evidence would be the determinant as to whether they are truthful or not. My experience is that people tend to ignore loose and wild white poker players or bad men drivers or obnoxious heterosexuals, but notice loose and wild Asian poker players, bad women drivers and what they see as flaming gays. They tend to stereotype members of groups that are different than themselves.

No one is disputing different physiological traits among different races. I am disputing the poster's contention that old black men shoot angles more than others. Anecdotal evidence is usually flawed because of the reasons I've indicated above.

andyfox

03-08-2005, 03:03 PM

No one would be upset were the poster pointing out a scientifically valid point. If he said old black men have less education, on average, than the general population, and the statistics bore that out, there would be no problem. But he said old black men tend to angle shoot more than others; he was using a few cases he had noticed to generalize. And that is the essence of racism.

A-Baum

03-08-2005, 03:08 PM

I do agree that steamboating is a doushbag. It's kind of funny that he can think he's a better poker player than me because he has different social views than me. Those aren't really related characteristics are they now Steam?

Oh and Steam, you should change your picture, you look like George Constanza in that one Seinfeld episode where he's wearing a tuxedo that's 3 sizes too small for him.

A-Baum

03-08-2005, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No one would be upset were the poster pointing out a scientifically valid point. If he said old black men have less education, on average, than the general population, and the statistics bore that out, there would be no problem. But he said old black men tend to angle shoot more than others; he was using a few cases he had noticed to generalize. And that is the essence of racism.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if in his experience he kept track of all angle shooting he's seen, and over 75% of all angle shooting was conducted by old black men. That would be scientific in a sense that those are the perceived numbers via his perspective. Would that be racism, or would that be simpl stating the facts? What if I were to tell you that 70% of crime in America is conducted by blacks. Those numbers are readily available for anyone to see. Am I a racist? There really isn't much difference there. Watch your step.

ShawnHoo

03-08-2005, 03:19 PM

The person who noticed collusion said that there was a tendency for some Asians to play together, with one player betting with, say, JJ on a Q-high board and his accomplice re-raising every street with rags, then mucking the river. This person said he grabbed the cards from the accomplice before the player mucked, and so he was able to catch the person. FWIW, I had never met the person telling the story before and I have not yet had the misfortune to be involved in a situation where I thought players (of any race) were colluding.

Numerous posters who I assume are intelligent people and good poker players have responded to say that I'm wrong about what I think I've noticed (to put it mildly). I'll certainly check myself more in the future when I'm at the table to see if I'm looking, at least subconsciously, for things that aren't there. Perhaps I need to do that in other arenas as well. Point taken.

Guruman

03-08-2005, 03:30 PM

I'm a hispanic who likes to play as the Black Guy in a Tux at pokerroom.com. Occasionally I'll take down some idiot and he'll let loose the N word.

That's racism.

Noticing that some black people might tend to angle-shoot is not. I'll state for the record that most of my Mexican family are notoriously bad tippers. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

--edit--

I've thought about it for a minute, and something is very obvious to me:

I don't find it remotely inconceivable to conclude that cultural patterns (that tend to exist along racial lines) can dramatically influence any given demographic's basic social patterns. It is the culture, not the race that the OP was ultimately observing.

asofel

03-08-2005, 03:54 PM

People's skin color, sexual preferences, age, height, weight, and so on are part of the reality we live in. These topics can be discussed in an open and constructive way, or we can start calling each other names and bragging about the size of our dicks.

I think a lot of the supposed (and real) bigotry can be avoided by well thought out discussion. There are often partial truths to stereotypes that are noticed. I'm a young white male and laugh my ass off when black comedians do the typical white guy impression. Sure there are some guys out there that are really like the pocket protecting stiffs they impersonate, but i'm not insulted by this. These same comedians will be quick to make jokes about dodging rent or paying bills, etc. They're doing it in a certain forum, and its understood to be a joke.

When you say something that's not supposed to be taken as a joke, and it involves issues like ethnicity, you do have to be careful how you say it.

Here's an example. You tell me if you think its racist:
I play pool a few nights a week. I play with a whole range of players, young, old, all types of ethnicites, male/female, etc. There are definitely some trends and similarities that happen to correspond to ethnicity. If any of you are or know asian pool players, often Filipino, there is a definite style of shooting. This can probably be traced to the popularity of the sport in the Phillipines, and the emulation of Efren Reyes and Francisco Bustamante who both shoot with similar movements.

Is this racist? My Filipino friends know this exists, and will often spot someone across the room and say "$10 bucks he's Filipino". I personally don't feel that I'm a bigot for noticing this similarity. I do think that how you discuss a topic like this says more about your true feelings. If I said "all asians have that funny arm movement and hold their cues strange" it would have a different effect.

I don't think the OP was trying to offend anyone, and I doubt he realized he might, but topics like this can easily offend some, especially if not thoughtout well before hand.

Just my $.02

ThinkQuick

03-08-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed that these dumb "let's rely on the floorman to bail us out" angleshots tend to come from one specific group

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He said that he has noticed this happen several times before at Commerce -- always with Asian players

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
**IN MY EXPERIENCE**, each ethnicity seems to have its own style of play

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
. People of different ethnicities and races have some different phisiological traits, that's a scientific FAC

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mike Caro writes about racial steroetypes...In my experience, I have found both of these observations to be true.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's so strange that these personal observations don't strike people as wholly unscientific and invalid. Even if I was prepared to consider an argument based on one person's life experience at the tables, that person would actually need to demonsrate that a certain 'race' had a statistically higher incidence of a personality trait nation or world wide. This could be a classic example of a selective memory, associating outbursts with people whose skin was distinct and not attaching importance to the outbursts from others.
Other people have postulated that the higher proportion of black players in this example has caused the observation. This could very well be true, or there could be other sociological reasons. Maybe people from predominantly black Inglewood are indeed more likely to try and bend the rules for whatever reason, and you've noticed.
From many possible explanations, stereotyping a race seems to be the most far-fetched, difficult to support, and otherwise unlikely. I don't know why this is the explanation that people jump to. Well I guess I do, but let's try and stop that.

Additionally, I wanted to comment on Luv2drivett's comment [ QUOTE ]
To me racism starts when seperatisim is involved. Stereotyping of an individual due to race is bigoted.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's great that you have these personal definitions, even though they not accurate. However, one might argue that since no one is claiming the superiority of one race, racism is not involved. I think it's a defensible argument but I still wouldn't like to see it on 2+2 just like I didn't want to see your argument that it not racism. Why take the time to convince others that it was "just bigotry" and not the horrible R word. In my opinion, statements like this help people get away with things and permit prejudice. And we all know that's where it starts...

MRBAA

03-08-2005, 04:24 PM

I actually think racial observations of this sort are alot like players who observe that "aces never win" or "98 is my lucky hand". We tend to overly generalize from our own very limited experience. While there's nothing wrong with noticing, it's important to resist the urge to form firm conclusions based on tiny samples, whether it's hands played or the people you play with.

InchoateHand

03-08-2005, 04:33 PM

Ah, the ever-famous "i have black/gay/women/asian/etc. friends" defense. Priceless.

InchoateHand

03-08-2005, 04:40 PM

If the OP had said "i've noticed its mainly old guys who cheat," your analogy might have made sense. I think talking about race is great--we don't do enough of it. I think generalizing, as the OP did, is kind of stupid, and if you read the OP's responses, you can see that he realizes the misstep he took. The "Anti-PC" police love attacking a bogeyman that very seldom actually exists.

Eihli

03-08-2005, 04:50 PM

hypocrite

jedi

03-08-2005, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What if in his experience he kept track of all angle shooting he's seen, and over 75% of all angle shooting was conducted by old black men. That would be scientific in a sense that those are the perceived numbers via his perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fallacy of personalization.

[ QUOTE ]
What if I were to tell you that 70% of crime in America is conducted by blacks. Those numbers are readily available for anyone to see. Am I a racist? There really isn't much difference there. Watch your step.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are they? So, how do they know who commited the unsolved crimes? And that 70% includes people who were arrested and sentenced? What about those who pled their way out to a lesser sentence? What about white collar crime?

If you were to tell me that 70% of crimes committed in the US were committed by blacks, I'd say that's a racist statement since you can't prove it.

Richie Rich

03-08-2005, 05:10 PM

..but you're the one out of line here. Our hero made a vague statement, and you asked for clarity with the aforeknowledge that he it was a derogatory opinion about a specific ethnic/color of people. In the future, try not to ask questions that you don't want the answer to.

BTW- asian females are the worst drivers in the world.

bwana devil

03-08-2005, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What if I were to tell you that 70% of crime in America is conducted by blacks. Those numbers are readily available for anyone to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

No but it would make you look like an you an idiot if you were wrong. Cite your source.

Oh and by the way, you're wrong.

bwana

[censored]

03-08-2005, 05:17 PM

I don't play much at all in Casino's and I have never seen an angle shoot. My question is for those that have played alot is the OP observation "the angle shoots he has witnessed were mostly attempted by older black men" consistent or not consistent with what you yourself have experienced.

Awesemo

03-08-2005, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Old and black.

[/ QUOTE ]

You better watch out, after seeing Be Cool, it appears that you can get capped for saying that.

bwana devil

03-08-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cite your source.

[/ QUOTE ]

WARNING: BORING POST

I do research for juvenile probation in Texas. Just today I was going over last year’s statistical reports getting them ready for publication. So when I saw A-baum’s claim of the 70%, I checked Texas’ numbers and for juveniles in our state, African Americans accounted for 22.6% of our juvenile referrals. I’m not sure what the black population percent is in Texas but it’s pretty close to that.

I deal w/ juveniles in Texas. A-baum is talking about the entire United States and probably implying the adult population. Infer what you will.

Not that you want to read it, but I asked A-baum for his direct source so here’s last year’s report if you’re really bored:

stat report (http://www.tjpc.state.tx.us/publications/reports/RPTSTAT2002.pdf)

impecunious

03-08-2005, 06:03 PM

Macdaddy Warsaw

03-08-2005, 06:05 PM

Wrong forum.

[censored]

03-08-2005, 07:40 PM

csuf_gambler

03-08-2005, 07:41 PM

the topic starter is correct. ain't you guys ever seen that first episode of tilt? them blacks pulled out they heaters over those angle shooting string beats. shieeet, that angle "shooting" almost turned into a real shooting.

what can we conclude? we can conclude that blacks have a higher propensity to angle shoot and also have a higher likely-hood of carrying a gat and pulling it on someone

VayaConDios

03-08-2005, 08:19 PM

Why is everyone jumping all over OP for calling a spade a spade?

pootle

03-08-2005, 08:31 PM

There's good and bad everywhere.

We're all fu**ed, more or less.

I'll let others flame me.

Ulysses

03-08-2005, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't it give you a clue that you even notice how many black people are at the table? If you didn't have an issue, you wouldn't notice or care.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just skimming this thread and this jumped out at me. This is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

I can recall the two times I have played mid-limit poker and there were more than 2 black guys at my table.

I can also recall every time I have played decent stakes no-limit poker and a white female was sitting at the table.

Your statement "If you didn't have an issue, you wouldn't notice" is insulting and wrong.

steamboatin

03-08-2005, 09:55 PM

If disagreeing with a bigot makes me a douchebag, pass the vinegar because I want to be an extra large douchebag.

You are taking my poker comments out of context.

If you don't like my avatar, I'll be happy to post it upside down so it will be easier for you to kiss my ass.

That's how it goes when people know they are wrong, they immediately make personal attacks about someone's appearance, its good to be back at the seventh grade level.

You are a PEEPEE, Well you are a PEEPEE head, so there!

steamboatin

03-08-2005, 10:07 PM

Yes, I do talk openly about my ups and downs playing poker and I always learn something and improve my game because of this open discussion.

If you choose to think less of me or my poker game because I am trying to improve, so be it. I have and continue to improve my game at a very rapid rate due mostly to the feedback from players that are better than I.

For the record, I get all or a significant portion of someone else's chips a lot more often then they get all of mine.

Luv2DriveTT

03-09-2005, 01:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
At one time, I thought just like the OP, That is how I was raised and I didn't know any better. I probably tend to overreact in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like you more & more every day steamboatin... you are a good egg.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

Reef

03-09-2005, 01:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Just put him on ignore, he's not worth the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

good call

Jay36489

03-09-2005, 01:57 AM

This is stupid. Shawn said in his particualr casino he sees lame angle shoots more from a certain ethnicity. This really isnt even stereotyping (much less racism), its an observation. If the poster said he thought retirees are rocks he wouldn't even have gotten a reply. Mention a vocal minorty and the white guilt starts flying and this thread is 4 pages long. What a waste of mason's bandwith....

bisonbison

03-09-2005, 02:02 AM

This thread sucks.

andyfox

03-09-2005, 02:40 AM

He said the ethnic group does thise type of "dumb" thing more than others. Now that's a poor use of bandwidth.

Phat Mack

03-09-2005, 04:00 AM

At this point, Player 1 goes crazy and starts jammering loudly about how the pot now belongs to him because you have to show both cards to win.

That's not an angle. It's just begging.

UCF THAYER

03-09-2005, 04:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]

It was obvious you are white

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

ThinkQuick

03-09-2005, 04:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]

This is stupid. Shawn said in his particualr casino he sees lame angle shoots more from a certain ethnicity. This really isnt even stereotyping (much less racism), its an observation. If the poster said he thought retirees are rocks he wouldn't even have gotten a reply. Mention a vocal minorty and the white guilt starts flying and this thread is 4 pages long. What a waste of mason's bandwith....

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand what you're saying Jay, but the point is to demonstrate to the OP and others that this observation may in fact be a product of his limited experience, personal (even subconscious) prejudice, or maybe even statistically reasonable and should not be extended to old black men outside of Inglewood, or maybe even in Inglewood. And a generalized stereotype was implied, as were a few others in this thread.
And yes, people get unduly excited when comments get made that stereotype races, because it is a sensitive issue that can breed more racism. 'White Guilt'? How about just pursuing a 'Never Again' mentality.

bunky9590

03-09-2005, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It was obvious you are white, and I am insulted by your statement

[/ QUOTE ]

Black Irish aren't we? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I agree TT, Just a completely assinine comment. If he's that ignorant just ignore him. You're not gonna change his mond anyway.

otnemem

03-10-2005, 11:18 AM

That was the funniest post I've ever read.

knifeandfork

03-10-2005, 01:01 PM

a "study" on tipping was conducted and published and aired on 60 minutes i think it was "blacks" tipped about 5% less than "whites" supposedly. exceptions to the rule apply in all things. poor people probably tip less than rich on avg, is this a direct correlation or do "black" people tip less than "white" people across the board? im too lazy to google and post the study but im sure it is stillout there check it out if you like. being observant is not racist, feeling a person or group is less "valuable" because of skin tone is ignorant mho,
jason
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1329241

PeeWeeH

03-10-2005, 01:03 PM

There was in article in the newspaper yesterday that said, "Blacks and women backing out of combat enlistment due to fear of combat, death; recruitment numbers down."

PeeWee

jtr

03-10-2005, 04:10 PM

Kudos for standing up for your beliefs, Steam. But do you mean to tell me that's really you -- I always that it was a picture of George Costanza. Sheesh, sorry.

Screwtape

03-10-2005, 04:46 PM

hooray for sanity

TomBrooks

04-20-2005, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am insulted by your statement.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why are you insulted? Are you an elderly Black man?

[ QUOTE ]
There is no room for biggotry here at 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]
Making an observation about a demographic trend is not bigotry. It is simply a logical assessment and one that does honest to reality if it is accurate. Failing to make such an observation where the situation did exist would indicate a lack of awareness and denial of reality.

Now if you’re saying that the OP made this up to discredit old Black men because he is predjudiced in some way against old Black men, then your accusation of bigotry might be true. But I saw nothing in your response that questioned the validity of his statement, only your opposition to his making the statement based on his observations for which he gave one example.

I also noticed you took issue with the racial part of the stated demographic, but not the age part. Do you conceed older people are more inclined to be angle shooters than younger people or did you overlook that part for other reasons?

Do you prefer to honor reality or hide it? Do you want to only look at what is pleasant, or are you willing to see what is flawed also? If one refuses to acknowledge things that might be ugly in the world, does that make them feel more or less complete?