Two questionable hands. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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guitarhero14

03-07-2005, 07:50 PM

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls, MP3 calls.

River: (8 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.05.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP2 (poster) calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12.40 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (8.70 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (13.70 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds, CO calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 16.70 BB

droolie

03-07-2005, 07:57 PM

Hand 1: I value bet the river.

Hand 2: I seriously doubt the board plays here. Tough to do but good fold considering you are likely to get raised by either of the yutz's yet to act. I call if closing the action due to the size of the pot. (Since this is it only costs 10 cents I call to see what everyone playing!)

zeropotential

03-07-2005, 07:57 PM

1:
fold to any agression along the way
if you've bet this far, why arn't you value-betting the river? i would

2:
i'd fold as well since UTG+1 called & your not last to act

Shillx

03-07-2005, 08:26 PM

Value bet the river in hand 1.

Someone should have you beat in hand 2, but it *probably* isn't the BB. I just hate these spots because the risk:reward isn't there by calling. Being the bettor in hands like this (if you have it or not) is much more rewarding.

Brad

guitarhero14

03-07-2005, 09:39 PM

Thank you all for the replies. First off, can someone explain what exactly is value betting? Second, the reason I didnt bet was because I had such a bad kicker that I thought I was up against a better kicker(but not much better, why someone didnt raise).

zeropotential

03-07-2005, 09:43 PM

well i looked for a book def. of value betting.... no luck
but i'll take a stab - someone will surely be able to outdo my definition however:

value betting is betting when your likely to win more then your fair share of the time... say for instance there are three oponents: to value bet you should have >33% chance of winning (assuming no opponent raises, and both call)

in short: betting when you have a better chance of winning then your oposition so that you make money over the long run

guitarhero14

03-07-2005, 09:49 PM

so, how exactly do you know if you have a >33% chance of winning? Thanks for the quick response.

zeropotential

03-07-2005, 09:51 PM

well, you don't _KNOW_...

say for instance you flop 4 to a flush... its gonna come in ~35% of the time
when your up against more then 3 opponents every bet you get them to put in goes into your pocket more offten, then yours will go into their pocket...

with heads up situations its a lot harder to say when your ahead...
and thus harder to say when you should value bet...

zeropotential

03-07-2005, 09:55 PM

if you check out the index of ssh there are about 10 instances value betting is mentioned in the text... i'm sure if you went through and read those pages you would get a better handle on the idea behind it then i could ever give you

guitarhero14

03-07-2005, 09:57 PM

I definetly NEED to go through SSH once again.

bonaparte

03-08-2005, 12:16 AM

Here is a good example of value betting:

You have A /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif from the BB. There are 7 callers.

The flop is 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif

You should know (although these odds are not in SSH) that you have a 1.9 to 1 chance of drawing to the nut flush in the next two cards. (We will round this to 2:1 for the rest of the example). For every three times this situation occurs you will lose twice and win once. (over the long haul).

A value bet would be correct here. If you bet and there are more than two callers then you have successfully value bet. Lets say there were 4 callers. You just got paid 4:1 on a 2:1 draw. You just made two bets (2 small bets, 1 BB). If you get lucky you will get 4 callers and the last caller will actually raise. Assuming you, and the other three callers, call you are now putting 2 bets into the pot and your opponents put 8. You will lose,in this situation, twice (losing 4 bets) and you will win, in this situation, once (winning 8 bets). In this case you just made 4 bets (8 won - 4 lost).

I guess a value bet can be summed up as: If number of callers is greater than the odds against me, then I can value bet.

I hope this is somewhat understandable.
The whole value bet thing gets a little more complicated when you start to take into account what you "feel" your chance of wining is verse the number of opponents left.

Bonaparte

bonaparte

03-08-2005, 12:18 AM

OK I'm stupid. Zeropotential just used this example. I should not have skimed over everything so fast.

zeropotential

03-08-2005, 12:20 AM

ah but you typed it up so nicely...