i overcall on the river, right? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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tiltaholic

03-07-2005, 06:52 PM

Button and SB are typical loose passives, except that SB is on my buddy list because he goes to showdown 70% of the time. UTG+1 is a typical loose passive also.

What do you do on the river?
And in addition, every time I think about this hand I find more questionable plays...such as:
preflop limp w/one limper.
betting into the pf raiser instead of check raising. (though these guys just do not fold)
3-betting the flop (is there enough value here?)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, Button raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

ArturiusX

03-07-2005, 07:02 PM

I'm not 100% sure of the EV of this play. Its likely UTG his his wheel, which means you split the pot, but there's another chance UTG hit the flush, and play flush draws by paying the minimum till he has it.

I'd fold, at best you'll be spliting the pot.

tiltaholic

03-07-2005, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold, at best you'll be spliting the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

my straight is 3-7, not A-5. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

and yes, I am virtually certain that one if not both of my opponents have an ace.

edit- not 2-6

droolie

03-07-2005, 07:07 PM

I call this. The pot is huge and you might be up against two wheels. You win this pot against wheels.

GrunchCan

03-07-2005, 07:08 PM

Post deleted by GrunchCan

LoaferGee12

03-07-2005, 07:09 PM

Hero's straight beats the wheel. However, there is a reason UTG+1 woke on the river and it isn't because he hit the ass-end of the straight. I'd fold this. I also don't think I am betting this flop. You don't want button to raise and potentially blast the field away. If you want to get in a raise I'd go for a check-raise to trap the field. However, I think check/call is the best line here as some of your outs will put a 3rd spade on a board and others will cause a split.

tiltaholic

03-07-2005, 07:09 PM

mmmm, i'm going to have to ask you to delete your post.

you fast typing bastard! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

GrunchCan

03-07-2005, 07:10 PM

ya owe me a delete. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

tiltaholic

03-07-2005, 07:15 PM

noted.

ArturiusX

03-07-2005, 07:17 PM

Woops, didnt see that you had 7 high straight.

Call this.

tiltaholic

03-07-2005, 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't want button to raise and potentially blast the field away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear what you are saying, but at the time my gut feeling was that my opponenets just would not fold. Now, I think it's a valid point to say "perahps you shouldn't be pumping your draw to the near nuts with only 6 completely clean outs to the near nuts" - but in the heat of the moment I decided that my 8 outs to a straight plus 3 aces minus some outs because my aces aren't clean, nor are the 2 spade ous for the straght, rolled up into my theory that maybe thinning the field wouldn't be such a bad thing.

And in response to this:
[ QUOTE ]
However, there is a reason UTG+1 woke on the river and it isn't because he hit the ass-end of the straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I counter: But it's a WHEEEEEEEEL! Seriously. Many loose passives go crazy when their Ax turns into a straight. It's like they think their hand is somehow concealed.

droolie

03-07-2005, 07:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't want button to raise and potentially blast the field away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear what you are saying, but at the time my gut feeling was that my opponenets just would not fold. Now, I think it's a valid point to say "perahps you shouldn't be pumping your draw to the near nuts with only 6 completely clean outs to the near nuts" - but in the heat of the moment I decided that my 8 outs to a straight plus 3 aces minus some outs because my aces aren't clean, nor are the 2 spade ous for the straght, rolled up into my theory that maybe thinning the field wouldn't be such a bad thing.

And in response to this:
[ QUOTE ]
However, there is a reason UTG+1 woke on the river and it isn't because he hit the ass-end of the straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I counter: But it's a WHEEEEEEEEL! Seriously. Many loose passives go crazy when their Ax turns into a straight. It's like they think their hand is somehow concealed.

[/ QUOTE ]

A flush wouldn't surprise me but then again neither would 2 str8's because there two ways to make four to a str8 here. Neither river bettor player pumped the flop which would be a telltale of a flush draw. I think YHIG easily enough to make this call profitable.

yellowjack

03-07-2005, 07:34 PM

Definitely call. A lot of LAGs will cap on the river with this their 4 to a wheel.

LoaferGee12

03-07-2005, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I counter: But it's a WHEEEEEEEEL! Seriously. Many loose passives go crazy when their Ax turns into a straight. It's like they think their hand is somehow concealed.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, however they are labeled passive for a reason. Bottom end of a straight with 3 to a flush on board. I think the difference between call and fold here is pretty small.

tiltaholic

03-07-2005, 07:42 PM

yeah. this is why i post the hand...
clearly if it's not a spade i might be 3-betting (or calling).

Shillx

03-07-2005, 08:15 PM

Cut the action at your river choice...

The flop bet really serves no purpose because no one will fold a better hand on this board. The PFR probably has you beat, but even if he has AK (for example) one of the other players isn't going to fold a hand like 99 (you still lose if a 6 comes). You are playing this to make a straight and to a lesser extent, a pair of aces.

You also have to consider that if it goes hero bets-button raises-fold-fold, this hand becomes tough to play since you don't have position. With position you would 3-bet to try and get a free card. If he caps you can play it in a straight forward way: Only raise the turn if you make a straight. If you hit an ace (on the turn or river) or running 6's you raise the river. Fold to a 3-bet on the river you spike an ace and cap the river if you make trips. Of course goto war should you make a straight. OOP this hand is much tougher to play because you would probably have to bet your straight should it come.

So I would check/raise the flop. You have extra implied odds on your check/raise because if a two slides, anyone with an ace makes a dubious straight. They will give you all the action you could want.

Your river play is fine. You will usually lose, but not enough to fold this imo.

Brad

tiltaholic

03-08-2005, 11:31 AM

thanks for the comments guys.

i am tending to agree with loafer and shill. i think the initial flop bet was wrong (but it happened to work out well for me luckily.) shillx- i don't see how i lose to 99 if a 6 falls, am i missing something?

anyway. utg+1 had A5s for a straight flush. sb had AQo. MHING