Smaller Laydown

[sthief09]

Villain is typical... 30/10/1.5


Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $15.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, CO folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero folds

[meep_42]

So your call on the flop was totally dependant on having the BD draws? You'd have folded if the board were 3-suited or the J was a 9?

-d

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
So your call on the flop was totally dependant on having the BD draws? You'd have folded if the board were 3-suited or the J was a 9?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]



when he bets there, there's a good chance he has a draw. sometimes he'll check the draw on the turn (even though my smooth call is just asking him to bet again). that has a lot of value. if the flop was KTx and I had no backdoor flush it would've been a lot closer. I think I still would've aclled. I like to peel. good things happen sometimes when you peel

[CanKid]

Did you feel A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Jx or any misc. draw would not lead the turn?

What was your plan if the turn was a Tx or T /images/graemlins/heart.gif ?

[gaming_mouse]

why not raise the flop and take off a free turn?

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
why not raise the flop and take off a free turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

No free cards on double-suited boards.

-d

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
why not raise the flop and take off a free turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
why not raise the flop and take off a free turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since by raising the flop we're hoping that both opponents made MP or worse and/or are drawing, taking a free card is more likely to hurt Hero than help him (especially after the turn negates both of Hero's backdoor draws).

I do agree with raising the flop, but I see it more as an attempt to make SB define his hand than as a free card play. I think this board is far too draw heavy to fold second pair without some evidence that SB actually does have TP; now, if Hero knows that SB would probably not bet the turn on a draw or lesser hand, even after Hero only called the flop bet, then the fold becomes better IMO.

[meep_42]

I still don't get it, why fold the turn if you think he'd play a draw this way?

The middle guy is the x-factor, there's no good way to get him out of the hand so you can just call it down to the river. I guess you don't feel you're good enough of the time to just call down?

-d

[sthief09]

I think it's less likely he has a draw when he bets again. the presense of the guy in the middle matters too. he could have a weak K I think.

but I don't know. maybe folding is wrong.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
why not raise the flop and take off a free turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

because I planned to fold the turn. raising the flop, betting the turn, and checking the river would have been my play if I felt my hand was worth a showdown. at the time, I didn't feel it was. maybe I was trying too hard to make a good fold.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

Since by raising the flop we're hoping that both opponents made MP or worse and/or are drawing, taking a free card is more likely to hurt Hero than help him (especially after the turn negates both of Hero's backdoor draws)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why we need to be assuming no one has TP to try for a free card play. We have backdoor draws. Plus, we can see a showdown for 1 more BB, if we have any doubts about the other player's holdings. Or, we can bet the turn again (some fold equity), and then take a free showdown UI if called.

[sthief09]

doing that costs 2 BB. doing it my way costs .5 BB. your way is best if you want to see a showdown. my way is best if you don't. I think more important is the chances this guy has a K, or the other guy has a K. that's what makes the difference between folding and calling.

[BottlesOf]

What line would you have taken if this were a 6 max game?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
why not raise the flop and take off a free turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not raise the flop and take off a free turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you have draws, and your hand (maybe) has showdown value. But I think the other suggestion I made, which Josh said he would opt for if he wanted to showdown -- betting the turn also, and then checking the river -- is better if you don't want to fold. I think the fold is fine though.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

thinking in the flop is good. too many people are too concerned with charging people for draws and defining hands and free cards and whatnot.

calling and seeing is perfectly fine. even if the guy was on a draw you are going to be 3-bet on this flop so many times and you'll be put in an even harder situation.

the turn makes for an interesting situation because i could easily see AJ, QJ, JT, etc. playing like this, but if you feel he wouldn't then the fold is okay because when he bets the turn you sort of have to change your mind about some things, like whether or not he'd bet out a draw again on the turn or whether or not he'd chicken out and not bet a jack. i guess an argument could be made for peeling once again on the turn and re-evaluate the river because so many players don't value bet enough, you may find a fold there if bet into again.