Another Ciaffone and Reuben hand.

[partygirluk]

15/25 PL, Everyone has at least 2K

The button open raises to 100, and you have 99 in the BB.

C&Rs' and my thoughts posted in reply.

[partygirluk]

They argue that as you are out of position you should reraise, and if he calls, fire out 500 on any flop because

"The chances are very good he won't be able to stand the heat".

But isn't this like investing 800 to 900 on a bluff? Couldn't you make the same play with 72o? This is a NL concept I am trying to understand better.

If you get reraised preflop you have to let them go, and you give up the opportunity of flopping a set and landing a big score.

If you do get called or raised on the flop (which is the only case your 99 is different from 72o) you are only going to be really comfortable if you do flop a set.

So it just seems better to me to either reraise with a bluff, or a monster.

Thoughts?

[Cornell Fiji]

Seems straightforward to me.

Stacks are easily deep enough to be playing for set value and your 99 might be good as it is so a fold is wrong.

You dont want to play a big pot out of position with just 99 therefore a raise wouldn't make much sense, especially if you are going to check if you miss the flop.

I would call and check-call the flop if it is all unders and make a 1/2 pot bet if i flopped my 9.

-Steve

[Cornell Fiji]

C&R are advocating turning their 99 into 72o. You are completely right. He probably wont be able to stand the heat but it makes more sense to make this play with 2 rags than with a hand that might be able to win a showdown.

Also, if you reraise, the flop comes 3 rags and you bet as C&R suggest and get called by villains AK you will be forced to check/fold the winner because you bloated the pot out of position.


-Steve


[ QUOTE ]
They argue that as you are out of position you should reraise, and if he calls, fire out 500 on any flop because

"The chances are very good he won't be able to stand the heat".

But isn't this like investing 800 to 900 on a bluff? Couldn't you make the same play with 72o? This is a NL concept I am trying to understand better.

If you get reraised preflop you have to let them go, and you give up the opportunity of flopping a set and landing a big score.

If you do get called or raised on the flop (which is the only case your 99 is different from 72o) you are only going to be really comfortable if you do flop a set.

So it just seems better to me to either reraise with a bluff, or a monster.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

[soah]

The key here is that the open-raise came from the button. More often than not, he's just going to have something like T8s and not AK. If you just call preflop, you are going to have no idea where you're at on most flops, and you'll be out of position. You're not going to win much if you have the best hand, and your opponent will be able to apply a lot of pressure to you. And he'll rarely double you up if you happen to flop a set. If you take the initiative, you're forcing your opponent to flop a huge hand. If one of the blinds reraises you preflop, how good are you going to feel about any pair that you hit on the flop?

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
The key here is that the open-raise came from the button. More often than not, he's just going to have something like T8s and not AK. If you just call preflop, you are going to have no idea where you're at on most flops, and you'll be out of position. You're not going to win much if you have the best hand, and your opponent will be able to apply a lot of pressure to you. And he'll rarely double you up if you happen to flop a set. If you take the initiative, you're forcing your opponent to flop a huge hand. If one of the blinds reraises you preflop, how good are you going to feel about any pair that you hit on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand all that, but the fact that you have 99 seems somewhat incidental here.

[soah]

You most likely have the best hand, and if the hand does end up going to showdown you have a chance to win the pot. If you have 72o then you're playing it as a pure steal, and you will rarely get a board that will allow you to win a showdown. 99 can win the pot either by betting the other player off of their hand, OR by winning a showdown. You may not be playing it with the intention of making a set, but that doesn't mean that the set won't ever hit. Hell, even if you had AA here you would be trying to get the money in the pot ASAP while you know you're ahead. Just because you're trying to end the pot without going to showdown doesn't mean you should start making the same moves with nothing.

[Kovner]

[ QUOTE ]
You most likely have the best hand, and if the hand does end up going to showdown you have a chance to win the pot. If you have 72o then you're playing it as a pure steal, and you will rarely get a board that will allow you to win a showdown. 99 can win the pot either by betting the other player off of their hand, OR by winning a showdown. You may not be playing it with the intention of making a set, but that doesn't mean that the set won't ever hit. Hell, even if you had AA here you would be trying to get the money in the pot ASAP while you know you're ahead. Just because you're trying to end the pot without going to showdown doesn't mean you should start making the same moves with nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you going to get to a showdown using the C&R line? If your opponent has a strong hand or hits the flop he's going to raise you and you're going to have to dump it. That's the argument other posters are making.

[soah]

Sometimes you'll flop a set. 72o can't flop sets.

[neon]

C+R's line has a number of benefits, as I see it. Perhaps foremost of these is what the play accomplishes for Shania purposes (yes, I've been reading old posts /images/graemlins/grin.gif). If you'll only pop back a button raiser w/ four hands, and your opponent is any good, in a deep-stacked, big bet game, you're toast barring an awesome flop. Yet, by reraising here, you're turning the tables on the button, as now he'll have to catch a monster flop to continue w/ the hand when you bet the pot on the flop . . .

Second, since the open raise came from the button, as someone already pointed out, it's very likely 99 is the best hand, and that the button will have to catch a flop to pull ahead in the hand. If you get more money in pre, you're going to win a bigger pot those times when the button folds unimproved to your flop bet.

The third reason I like this is for deceptive reasons . . . In the off chance that villain has AA or KK on the button, decides to smooth-call your preflop reraise, and the flop comes 9-high, or w/ a nine at all for that matter, the button is in a whole world of hurt. Reraising here gets you paid off when you hit your set, and gets you action down the line when you reraise w/ AA, KK, etc. . . .

FWIW . . .

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
They argue that as you are out of position you should reraise, and if he calls, fire out 500 on any flop because

"The chances are very good he won't be able to stand the heat".

But isn't this like investing 800 to 900 on a bluff? Couldn't you make the same play with 72o? This is a NL concept I am trying to understand better.

If you get reraised preflop you have to let them go, and you give up the opportunity of flopping a set and landing a big score.

If you do get called or raised on the flop (which is the only case your 99 is different from 72o) you are only going to be really comfortable if you do flop a set.

So it just seems better to me to either reraise with a bluff, or a monster.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

if u play with 72 you are playing strictly to try and bluff -- with 99 u can hit the set or a good flop, and then can decide to bluff if you dont.

spend some time rereading my post history.

[Cornell Fiji]

In no way am I saying that you should only reraise with four hands in this situation, I am just saying that the optimal way to play 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif is not by bloating the pot with excessive preflop action. 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif is the type of hand that will often be turned up as a winner at showdown when it gets there.

All other things being equal, the best way to play a hand like 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif is the way that will allow you to turn it up at showdown and thus take down the pot. Reraising preflop means that you have to lead the flop and you are committing too much here if the villain does the most scary play and smooth calls, as he will do a good percentage of the time (a percentage most directly related to what he is thinking about your reraise preflop if he is thinking about your reraise preflop.)

If you are going to be reraising a hand pf and following it up with a bet on the flop you will probably take it down 60%-90% of the time depending on three factors: your table image - does your opponent think that you would only take this line with 4 hands? The degree to which your opponent is a 'cop.' And of course, the cards that your opponents hold and how well they hit the flop.

For the purpose of taking the pot down without a showdown, 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is as good as 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif as the OP suggested. The reason that C&R used 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif and not 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the example in their book must be due to some additional merit that the former has in those hands that do get shown down, the big pots that occur when you do get called.

For those of you who think that C&R's line of reraising pf is optimal because of its 'mixing-it-up' implications, would you agree that the play would also be best when the hero holds 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? Now, good poker sense tells you that you shouldn't be building too many big pots out of position, just that you should occasionally be mixing it up. Because you don’t want to be raising out of position with too many hands and because it is better to have the suited connectors in a big hand than a middle pair you don’t need to be making this play here with 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. (in addition the difference in EV of 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif played slowly vs. aggressively is greater than the difference in EV of suited connectors played slowly vs. aggressively meaning that even if suited connectors were equally valuable as a midpair when played as C&R suggested you should still choose to play the suited connectors instead.)

-Steve

[ QUOTE ]
C+R's line has a number of benefits, as I see it. Perhaps foremost of these is what the play accomplishes for Shania purposes (yes, I've been reading old posts /images/graemlins/grin.gif). If you'll only pop back a button raiser w/ four hands, and your opponent is any good, in a deep-stacked, big bet game, you're toast barring an awesome flop. Yet, by reraising here, you're turning the tables on the button, as now he'll have to catch a monster flop to continue w/ the hand when you bet the pot on the flop . . .

Second, since the open raise came from the button, as someone already pointed out, it's very likely 99 is the best hand, and that the button will have to catch a flop to pull ahead in the hand. If you get more money in pre, you're going to win a bigger pot those times when the button folds unimproved to your flop bet.

The third reason I like this is for deceptive reasons . . . In the off chance that villain has AA or KK on the button, decides to smooth-call your preflop reraise, and the flop comes 9-high, or w/ a nine at all for that matter, the button is in a whole world of hurt. Reraising here gets you paid off when you hit your set, and gets you action down the line when you reraise w/ AA, KK, etc. . . .


[/ QUOTE ]

[neon]

all right. so you're saying that in order to maximize the EV of the range of hands you're willing to defend your blind w/ against a button raise, big pairs, big slick, SC's and junk (w/ a read, obviously) should be raised, but not middle pairs, as they have more intrinsic showdown value?

this makes sense. would you throw baby pairs into the mix as well? how about unsuited broadway cards?

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
this makes sense. would you throw baby pairs into the mix as well? how about unsuited broadway cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Baby Pairs - I would not reraise pf with baby pairs here because they do not play well in a big pot the same way that suited connectors do. It is true that they don't have the showdown value that 9s have but the situation that you want to be in when you do hit your set is in a raised pot where the villain will likely go too far with his hand when hhe indeed has a good hand and feels 'entitled to the pot.'

Two broadway cards - I would not reraise with KQs or something like that because if I hit I would have to play a big pot with TPGK while out of position. I think a hand like KQs is similar to the 9s in that it will win a lot of showdowns but its holder can be pushed off of the hand often. With two broadway cards I would call (so that the opponent had me on any two) and would probably lead out if the flop was all little cards (a flop that is supposed to hit the big blind.) Even if called you will theoretically have 6 outs to improve on the turn, a turn that you probably wouldn't be able to see unimproved if you bloat the pot preflop.

-Steve

[Matt Flynn]

C&R got it wrong assuming an average opponent. but maybe they play against button hogs. S&M liked the book but when Mason blessed it that very hand leapt to mind. i hope that's how you spell leapt. anyway, they are still wrong unless you have serious reading skills over your opponents or he is tight enough that you do not have stackoff potential or button pops the blinds often.

if they think the opponent is quite good but not holding gin then raise. it's a good example of how a simple hand goes all to hell against an opponent who outclasses you and has position.

against someone who has been popping the blinds a lot you should reraise to punish.

matt

[Rococo]

"spend some time rereading my post history"

Poster would be a lot better off rereading flynn, diablo, limon, GoG, etc.