AJo UTG

[Bodhi]

Consider the table loose and passive, where a lot players cold call raises preflop with anything they'd play for one small bet. You have AJo:

[GrunchCan]

Always raise. The worse the opponents, the more this is true. Bad opponents will call a raise with hands that are dominated or worse.

[zeropotential]

I'm assuming this poll is inspired by the recent handpost where this question came up.

As default I use the SSH loose pre-flop guide for EP and the tight guide for all the rest. By this method, the default play is raise.

An unsuited highcard hand plays best against few opponents a raise will accomplish this.

You have equity: raise. But don't get to attached, be ready to release w/ an unfavorable flop.

[morglum_s]

I don't like AJo under the gun, or early position at all. so actually fold....

-m

[davelin]

Easy raise.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
You have equity: raise. But don't get to attached, be ready to release w/ an unfavorable flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Bodhi]

I'm curious what everyone here thinks. A lot us raise here because we love a big Ace. But more often than not I don't raise because: 1) I can't limit the field; 2) I want to see if I'm against a bigger Ace; 3) Keeping the pot small induces bigger mistakes on the flop and later streets.

Btw, I chose to vary my play. don't want to commit to always raising or always calling.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like AJo under the gun, or early position at all. so actually fold....

-m

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing an awful lot of value.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious what everyone here thinks. A lot us raise here because we love a big Ace. But more often than not I don't raise because: 1) I can't limit the field; 2) I want to see if I'm against a bigger Ace; 3) Keeping the pot small induces bigger mistakes on the flop and later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Even a better reason to raise if people will cold-call with inferior and even dominated hands than us.

2) Most of the times you're not. If you're 3-bet proceed with caution. I don't refuse to raise TT because I may face against a bigger pocket pair.

[Bodhi]

Interesting. To me TT is significantly stronger than AJo. If there's a raise right in front of me, I 3-bet with TT (talking about party .5/1 here).

[morglum_s]

could be. I don't do well with with flopped overcards so I try to avoid them if possible. If I played I would definitely play it for a raise. On the other hand I will play KQo off with a raise here. Wonder if that makes any sense...

-m

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting. To me TT is significantly stronger than AJo. If there's a raise right in front of me, I 3-bet with TT (talking about party .5/1 here).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well yes, I'd rather have TT than AJo any day. I was just arguing against your explanation of not raising AJo because you may be up against a better hand.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand I will play KQo off with a raise here. Wonder if that makes any sense...


[/ QUOTE ]
Not really.

It's not a huge error folding this, but it's a better idea to learn how and when to play it UTG than it is to just fold it and never learn.

Rob

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
could be. I don't do well with with flopped overcards so I try to avoid them if possible. If I played I would definitely play it for a raise. On the other hand I will play KQo off with a raise here. Wonder if that makes any sense...

-m

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are releaseing AJo becasue you are not confident in your postflop game, then that is a very wise move. But now that your'e here at 2+2, it's time to work on that postlfop game, where all the $ is.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Bodhi]

You're a lot more likely to be against a bigger Ace than a bigger pocket pair. Anyway, I don't expect there to be a bigger Ace, but I'd like to know if I am. So many fish will just cold call with AQ or AK, and not reraise.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
You're a lot more likely to be against a bigger Ace than a bigger pocket pair. Anyway, I don't expect there to be a bigger Ace, but I'd like to know if I am. So many fish will just cold call with AQ or AK, and not reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against TT:

AA - 6 ways
KK - 6 ways
QQ - 6 ways
JJ - 6 ways

Against AJ -
AK - 12 ways
AQ - 12 ways

Care to retract your statement? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I don't expect there to be a bigger Ace, but I'd like to know if I am. So many fish will just cold call with AQ or AK, and not reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't click with me. If, on the one hand, you think you can't clear the filed by raising because everyone coldcalls anyway, then how in the world are you to know that you're up against a bigger ace when "so many fish will just coldcall with AQ or AK?"

[Bodhi]

because even a lot of bad players raise with AQ or AK if no one else has raised yet.

[Bodhi]

No. You're assuming equal probabilities for the occurance of pocket pairs and big broadways.

Suppose someone only raises under the gun with AA, KK, or AK. I know for a fact that the odds are still 4-3 (HFAP)that they have AK and not a pocket pair when they raise, even though the total number of "ways" for each of the possibilities are equal.

[Catt]

It feels like you're mind is made up (which is fine) and you're contriving reasons to justify the decision.

[ QUOTE ]
because even a lot of bad players raise with AQ or AK if no one else has raised yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will these same bad players raise TT, JJ, QQ, KK, KQ, etc. if no one has raised yet? IF the answer is yes to some or all, how does limping allow you to know you're up against a bigger A? I'd suggest that if you're limping AJo, someone raises, you call, the flop comes Axx, and you fold because you know you're dominated, you're making some egregious mistakes.

[ QUOTE ]
No. You're assuming equal probabilities for the occurance of pocket pairs and big broadways.

Suppose someone only raises under the gun with AA, KK, or AK. I know for a fact that the odds are still 4-3 (HFAP)that they have AK and not a pocket pair when they raise, even though the total number of "ways" for each of the possibilities are equal.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense. It's 4:3 that he has AK because the ways to make AA, KK, and AK are:

AA=6
KK=6
AK=16

So, AK = 16 ways; and AA or KK = 12 ways; or 4:3 odds of AK.

The HPFAP example was almost certainly an example where the Hero holds neither an A or a K (don't have it in front of me - was it a QQ hand example shown just to explain the reason why calling down against such a pre-flop raiser can demonstrate that odds sometimes make the non-intuitive play the correct one?).

The statement "I know for a fact that the odds are still 4-3 (HFAP)that they have AK and not a pocket pair when they raise, even though the total number of "ways" for each of the possibilities are equal" is an example where rote memorization instead of thoughtful understanding of the underlying concept has steered you wrong. The number of "ways" to make each hand determines the odds of holding a specific hand versus another hand (or range vs range, etc.).

[Bodhi]

You're right that I made a mathematical mistake.My bad.

[Shillx]

It has been debated over and over again. I wish I had 2000 hands where I limped AJo UTG and 2000 where I raised UTG to give you a rock solid answer. What you can do is run a t-test. I might try it after I get enough samples at 2/4.

Just don't fold.

Brad

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
No. You're assuming equal probabilities for the occurance of pocket pairs and big broadways.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are, I just laid out the number of combinations of each.