Easy laydown, or is it

[JDErickson]

Opponent in this hand is good. Stats 21/7, AF 1.7

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.16 BB

During the hand I thought the flop fold was good. After the hand I started thinking.

He raises PF and calls a 3 bet. Probably AK-AJ, TT or 99 maybe JJ.Most likely AK-AJ though

BUT...... If he was thinking this through and saw me 3 bet, He knows I have JJ-AA or AK. Could he have been playing this way with TT or 99 for instance?

[jacki]

what about KQ?

I'd have a hard time laying this down, but I'm bad like that.
I'd probably throw out a raise and see what happens.

[CanKid]

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I'd probably throw out a raise and see what happens.

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[meep_42]

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what about KQ?

I'd have a hard time laying this down, but I'm bad like that.
I'd probably throw out a raise and see what happens.

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Why would you want to slow Villain down if he's got an inferior holding?

I'm probably going to showdown here, though it's likely Hero is beat.

-d

[jacki]

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what about KQ?

I'd have a hard time laying this down, but I'm bad like that.
I'd probably throw out a raise and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to slow Villain down if he's got an inferior holding?

I'm probably going to showdown here, though it's likely Hero is beat.

-d

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I'm just adding KQ to the possible holdings for villain.

Is this a way ahead/way behind hand where you should just check-call all the way?

[meep_42]

2.5:12, so about 1 time in 5 you need to be good here... maybe you save half a bet by raising the flop, betting the turn and folding to a c/r (or taking a free showdown UI) -- but I can see the occasional flush draw check-raising sometimes.

I'm not sure on this one, it seems like a way-ahead/way-behind, but I just don't get the feeling that Hero wins 21% of the time.

-d

[housenuts]

i raise the flop, and try to get to the showdown as cheap as possible from there. if raising the flop gets you a free check on the turn then take it.

he could have a plethora of hands. the fact that he calls the 3-bet doesn't tell you anything at all. even if he raised with 27o he's still calling this 3-bet preflop. also he could have AA because alot of people don't like capping preflop with big hands like that.
he could think you have AA-TT, AK, or AQs (i 3-bet that)

my question is what do you do if he 3-bets the flop? i think at this point you can lay it down.

[marching_on_together]

generally 3-betting pre-flop equals AK or big pocket pair on party so that's probably what your opponent will put you on unless he has you tagged as a good player who will 3-bet here with a wider range of hands. That being said i think most decent players will bet out here on the flop with anything as they know that the Ace is scary card for most of your holdings.

calling is often an underated action but here i like raising this flop unless he has AQ AA or QQ he's got to be a bit nervous about what you hold. Thing is when he does have one of those he may go for a check raise on the turn which is why i would check through the turn. If he 3-bets the flop i'm done. If you raise on the flop often your going to knock him off a hand you dominate and one which you wouldn't mind him calling down with but that being said I still like the flop raise as it allows you to define his hand somewhat.

[housenuts]

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generally 3-betting pre-flop equals AK or big pocket pair on party so that's probably what your opponent will put you on unless he has you tagged as a good player who will 3-bet here with a wider range of hands.

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what range of hands does a good player 3-bet with?

[masonx]

raising flop and trying to get a cheap showdown. If he 3-bets and/or bets out on turn i will probably get away.

[housenuts]

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[ QUOTE ]
generally 3-betting pre-flop equals AK or big pocket pair on party so that's probably what your opponent will put you on unless he has you tagged as a good player who will 3-bet here with a wider range of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

what range of hands does a good player 3-bet with?

[/ QUOTE ]

i will answer my own question after reading jennifer's section in SS2 today. she claims that a good player could make this move with pocket pairs to try to isoloate the raiser. although i think this was moreso against a loose raiser than 21/7 as your stats indicate.

this is a move i used to try and i posted a couple hands about it and i got the general consensus that it wasn't a good play.

[me454555]

Pot is small, you could easily be way behind, good fold

[marching_on_together]

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generally 3-betting pre-flop equals AK or big pocket pair on party so that's probably what your opponent will put you on unless he has you tagged as a good player who will 3-bet here with a wider range of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


what range of hands does a good player 3-bet with?

[/ QUOTE ]

i will answer my own question after reading jennifer's section in SS2 today. she claims that a good player could make this move with pocket pairs to try to isoloate the raiser. although i think this was moreso against a loose raiser than 21/7 as your stats indicate.

this is a move i used to try and i posted a couple hands about it and i got the general consensus that it wasn't a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well i wasn't including 10,10 in the average party players 3 betting hands and i would 3bet that plus often AQs, if you play well post flop you can reraise some of the smaller pocket pairs. In someways it's easyier to 3-bet an average TAG with the non-premium PP rather than a LAg as it's easier to define there hand post flop plus they will release earlier i.e. they don't call down with unfavourable flops so you have a better idea when your ahead. Of cause if this is a tricky player who will slow play there big PP then you might choose to avoid the situation but against an average but not great TAG then you can 3-bet here with a wider range of hands than just AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT. AKs AK AQs

[meep_42]

Question being -- are you raising the flop with AK or AQ? Probably not, right? Why give away our hand by doing something we wouldn't do if we had an A?

I think I call and see what he does on the turn, if he bets, I have a decision, if he checks, I check behind and call 1 on the river.

-d

[Fat Nicky]

I honestly see no problem with folding to the flop bet.